12v Generator vs 1wire Alternator

[EZ]

Hi guys,
My F130 has an old beater of an alternator on it.
The original generator mount was modified to fit the alternator.
However, the alignment is poor at best.
I have some 12v generators (starter generators for 10hp Briggs&Strat), but they should deliver what I require for charging.
These gens were also equipped with a regulator.

My plan is to install the gen and regulator in place of the alternator.

Never did like the bulky size of the alternator, plus no weather protection for them.

Do you see any positives (no pun intended) to this application, or know of any negatives?

Thanks.

[Don McCombs]

I'm not sure I see a downside to the alternator. The generator and regulator would be located out in the weather, just like the alternator. Here's the alternator on my SA...

[EZ]

Don,
That is one beauty of a Super A!
Very similar to it's kid brother, the F-130.

I hear you on the weather issue. Seems to me the regulator is somewhat more sealed, i.e. no big holes for water to enter.
My alt is pretty beat up, but the generator is nice and clean and ready to work.

My machine will be very similar to yours soon. I have the weights front and back.
I notice you have no battery box. I need to fabricate a small pad for the battery.
A replacement box is in the order of $250, too rich for me.
Also have the 3 rib fronts, but they need to be installed yet.

[Eugene]

I would spend a bit of time adjusting/fixing the alternator mount.

Some starter/generators only put out 12 amps, some 15 amps. Regulators are rated at anywhere from 8 to 20 amps. Regulators are expensive and sometimes hard to find. Depending on which regulator, some regulators cost twice as much as a rebuilt single wire alternator.

There is a longevity issue. The alternator should be around and working long after the starter/generator needs repair or the regulator requires replacement.

[EZ]

Eugene,
Thanks for the reply.
I had not considered the output current in the equation.
I like the compactness of the generator, and I have 3 of them and a couple regulators.
Will look into it more.

[Don McCombs]

Have you contacted Norm Quay on the battery box? His work is excellent and reasonably priced.

Unique Design Workshop
830 South Main Street
DeGraff, Ohio 43318
Telephone: Norm Quay: (937) 585-6475

[Matt Kirsch]

One big downside to generators is you always seem to be fixing on them. The output's down, it's not charging at all, or the needle is jumping around, so you have to fiddle-fart with the wiring and the regulator and do troubleshooting. Alternators just seem to work far longer between problems.

Another big advantage is you can get a generic Delco 10SI rebuilt alternator for as little as $25 at your local auto parts store. Rebuilt generators run $100-$150, and 12V generators are harder to find.

Frankly I'm not sure why alternators seem so much more robust and reliable. They have brushes, but maybe their design is more refined? Fewer external connections perhaps? I really don't know.

A and C lineage tractors are the easiest to convert to alternator. No hood clearance to deal with.

[Eugene]

Frankly I'm not sure why alternators seem so much more robust and reliable. They have brushes, but maybe their design is more refined? Fewer external connections perhaps? I really don't know.

Keeping the answer short, the brushes in the generator carry all of the electrical load generated. In the alternator the brushes are used to carry a much lower electrical load to the rotor. The electrical load, electrical output, in an alternator is carried in the non-moving parts; the stator, diodes, and regulator.

[EZ]

I will put this discussion to bed.
Going to stay with the alternator.
Looked at the mount again and can modify slightly for alignment and move ahead.
Thanks for the input guys.
PS. Both my Cubs have original generator/reg setups and so far so good, but they are of course a different mount on the opposite side of the tractor.

[Jim Becker]

Frankly I'm not sure why alternators seem so much more robust and reliable. They have brushes, but maybe their design is more refined? Fewer external connections perhaps? I really don't know.

Keeping the answer short, the brushes in the generator carry all of the electrical load generated. In the alternator the brushes are used to carry a much lower electrical load to the rotor. The electrical load, electrical output, in an alternator is carried in the non-moving parts; the stator, diodes, and regulator.

Another thing, generators have a split ring commutator while alternators have slip rings. Generator brushes have to constantly cross the separation between the segments.

[SONNY]

The slip rings make for constant contact as where the segments arc and burn when running! My welder is slip ring set-up and don't give much trouble, so there is difference in the 2 systems! thanks; sonny

[livinggood]

I have a hard time getting my Generator to Charge, any suggestions? Any Wiring diagrams?

[EZ]

THIS IS A CUT AND PASTE FROM THE YT SITE.
Posted 2011................All credit to the guy with the handle SadFarmall


There are many questions placed on this forum about generator and regulator issues. The following may help for both 6 and 12 volt systems set up with generator and regulator charging systems.

1). Always check that wiring and instruments (ammeter / voltmeter) are in good order and operate correctly.

2). Ensure that all connections are good, tight and clean.

3). Ensure that the battery is in a satisfactory condition and that the connections to it are tight and clean, especially the connection to Earth.

There are basic tests to check generator and voltage regulator operation:

Test 1): Disconnect leads from generator. Connect one lead of a Voltmeter to the Main (or D) terminal and the other lead to Earth. Start the engine. Run the generator up to approx. 3,000 rpm.

Result:

a).Voltmeter reads 2-4 Volts = armature and brush connections OK (6 and 12 volt systems)

b). Voltmeter reads 0 Volts = Check brushes are in good condition and make good contact with commutator. If brushes are good and reading remains at zero, the armature is defective.

c). Voltmeter reading rises with engine speed = short circuit between Main (or D) and Field (or F) terminals. Field coils defective.

Test 2): Disconnect leads from generator. Connect Main (or D) and Field (or F) terminals to each other. You can use an ammeter to do this. (The ammeter should read no more than two 2 amps. Connect one lead of a Voltmeter to the Main (or D) terminal and the other lead to Earth. Start the engine. Gradually increase engine to a fast idle speed.

Result:

a). Rising volts with rising speed and full scale reading at fast idle = generator is in good order.

b). 2-4 volts as engine speed increases = open circuit in field coils. Field coils defective. (6 and 12 volt systems)

c). 0 volts = grounded field coils or field connection. Repair connection and/or replace field coils.

Test 3): Check leads are correctly connected to generator terminals. Disconnect Main (or D) and Field (or F) leads from voltage regulator. Connect one lead of a Voltmeter to the end of the Main (or D) lead and the other to Earth. Start engine and run generator at approx. 3,000 rpm.

Result:

a). 2-4 volts = lead from Main (or D) terminal on regulator to Main (or D) terminal on generator is in good order. (6 and 12 volt systems)

b). 0 volts = lead from Main (or D) is open circuited or Earthed. Rewire this lead.

c). Rising volts with rising speed = short circuit between Main (or D) and F leads. Find short circuit and rectify.

Test 4): Check leads are correctly connected to generator terminals. Disconnect Main (or D) and Field (or F) leads from voltage regulator and connect them together. Connect one lead of a Voltmeter to the end of the Main (or D) lead and the other to Earth. Start engine and run up to fast idle speed.

Result:

a). Rising volts with rising speed = leads from generator to regulator are in good order.

b). 0 volts = field lead is Earthed. Find where it is Earthed and rectify.

c). 2-4 volts (6 and 12 volt systems) = open circuit in field lead between generator and regulator. Find damaged section of lead and rectify.

Test 5): Ensure all connections to generator and regulator are clean and tight. Connect one lead of a Voltmeter to the Ammeter (or A) terminal of the regulator. Connect the other lead of the Voltmeter to the Earth (or E) terminal of the regulator. Do not start the engine.

Result:

a). Voltage same as battery voltage = regulator ground connection is in good order.

b). Voltage less than battery or zero reading = regulator ground connection is poor or non-existent. Check connection and Earth wire if fitted.

Do NOT carry out the following test with the battery in circuit!

Test 6): Remove the regulator cover. Place a piece of dry card between the cut-out contacts to isolate the battery. Connect one lead of a voltmeter to the Main (or D) terminal and the other lead to Earth. Run generator at approx. 3,000 rpm:

Result:

a). For 6 Volt Systems:

ambient temp of 50-70ºF reading is 8-8.5 volts

ambient temp of 85 - 105ºF reading is 8.0 volts

= regulator is in order

b). For 12 Volt Systems:

ambient temp of 50-70ºF reading is 16-16.5 volts

ambient temp of 85 - 105ºF reading is 15.5-16 volts

=regulator is in order

c). Voltage remains constant, but outside limits given in a) and b) = regulator (NOT cut-out) requires adjustment.

d). Rising volts with rising generator speed up to 3,000 rpm and beyond = short circuit between Main and Field leads or broken shunt winding in regulator bobbin. To check regulator bobbin, place a screwdriver above it. If there is no magnetic pull, regulator is defective. Replace it.

e). Reading approx. half what it should be = regulator contacts corroded or burnt. To test, bridge regulator contacts. This will close the circuit between the Main and Field terminals. If you see rising volts with rising engine speed now, this proves the regulator contacts are defective.

f). Voltage does not rise with engine speed or is erratic = air gap settings on bobbin and regulator contacts are incorrect. Recitfy by setting to manufacturers specifications.

Test 7): Do not run engine for this test.

Remove card from cut-out contacts. Connect one lead of a voltmeter to the Ammeter (or A) terminal on the regulator and the other lead to Earth (not the Earth or E terminal on the regulator).

Result:

a). Voltmeter shows battery voltage = connection between the battery and ammeter terminal on regulator is good

b). Voltmeter shows zero voltage = connection between battery and ammeter terminal on regulator is open circuited

c). Voltmeter shows less than battery voltage = connection between battery and ammeter terminal on regulator is poor.

Test 8: Same as Test 7, but with engine running.

Result:

a). As the cut-out closes the reading increases by 0.5 to 1 Volt above battery voltage and increases to the correct regulator voltages in Test 6 = cut-out is in order

b). zero voltage or very low voltage shown when cut-out closes = dirty or poorly adjusted cut-out contacts. Clean and adjust.

Test 9): Connect one lead of a voltmeter to the Main (or D) terminal on the regulator and other lead to a good Earth. With Engine running:

Result:

a). For 6 Volt Systems

Cut-out points close at 6.3-6.7 Volts = Cut-out in good order

b). For 12 Volt Systems

Cut-out points close at 12.7-13.3 Vots = Cut-out in good order

c). Cut-out points close outside limits in a) and b) = cut-out out of adjustment. Adjust cut-out and test from zero voltage.

d). Cut-out does not close = defective cut-out. Replace cut-out.
This post was edited by SadFarmall at 07:16:42 04/25/11.

[Eugene]

I have a hard time getting my Generator to Charge, any suggestions? Any Wiring diagrams?

Replace the generator and regulator with a one wire alternator. Cheaper, more reliable, simple conversion.

http://s101.photobucket.com/user/farmal ... sort=4&o=3

Above link, eliminate the wires going to terminal 1 and 2 on the alternator when you install a single wire alternator.

There are a number of discussions on the installation of the single wire alternator on this site.