PTO / Gear grinding

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Glen
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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby Glen » Sat Jul 23, 2022 8:55 pm

Dale Finch wrote:In the first photo above looking inside the differential housing, I don't recognize the "ring" around the clutch shaft. (The back side of a sealed bearing?)

Hi,
That is the older trans shaft rear bearing in his pic than your 1955 Cubs have. It is the rear shield over the bearing that you see in the pic.
They are a roller bearing with a bigger OD than Cubs serial number 180614 and above have.
The newer bearing is a needle bearing. :)

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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby Dale Finch » Sun Jul 24, 2022 7:52 am

Thanks, Glen! I knew I hadn't seen one like that! As you said, all my cubs are "newer"!! :lol:

But it still looks like something was rubbing it...maybe that messed up PTO clutch collar was fixed in place with that screw to keep the PTO permanently engaged, but had been fixed too far forward.
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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby marshall » Sun Jul 24, 2022 8:26 am

Where you have the bolt, there should be a set screw that is aligned with a flat on the shaft. It should be tight enough to keep the collar from falling off, but loose enough that the collar can slide forward and back. I agree with Don about replacing those parts now.


I'm figuring on just replacing a lot of parts now that its opened up and I'll be incurring shipping costs.

I've added the PTO shaft, lever pin, gasket, and collar to my TM tractor cart.
But I'm not seeing the set screw or the pilot bushing on the TM tractor site. If they're there, can someone point me at them. O/w maybe I can buy these from Steiner or somewhere else (links, please)?

Are there other relatively inexpensive things like bearings I should replace while I'm at it?

I'd love to get this back together and actually be able to use it before the summer is over.

Glen, I'll follow your instructions for adjusting the clutch once this PTO is rebuilt.

Thanks all!

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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby Bob McCarty » Sun Jul 24, 2022 9:01 am

The set screw will come with the shifter collar. If you can remove the bolt and reuse yours, it's a standard size. TM has the bushing under PTO, part # PT 752.
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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby marshall » Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:31 am

Based on Glens reply to Dale identifying that bearing with the grind marks on it I'm wondering if I'll be able to get it out and replace it. Here's what I'm guessing is the right part: http://www.tmtractor.com/new/pt/155fp.htm

Let me know how I'd get it out. Pry from rear with a flathead screwdriver?


I just want to be sure I understand the set screw vs bolt issue. On mine there's a ground down bolt that happened because it was too close to the bearing and needs to be further back on the shaft. My understanding is that it should instead be a SCREW which I would assume has a much lower profile and would not grind on the bearing. I assume the location of the collar on the shaft also depends on getting it to line up so that the lever pin fits into its slot correctly.

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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby Dale Finch » Sun Jul 24, 2022 10:35 am

That bearing in the rear of the transmission housing is not the PTO Shaft bearing...that is for the clutch (main drive) shaft. It might be fine.

You might as well replace the PTO bearing and seal. The bearing comes with the snap ring for the new shaft:
http://www.tmtractor.com/new/pt/155fp.htm
http://www.tmtractor.com/new/pt/482fp.htm
And here is TM's PTO Shaft Bushing:
http://www.tmtractor.com/new/pt/752fp.htm

I earlier posted this HOW TO that should walk you through things:
http://farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=100075
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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby Glen » Sun Jul 24, 2022 5:30 pm

marshall wrote:Based on Glens reply to Dale identifying that bearing with the grind marks on it I'm wondering if I'll be able to get it out and replace it. Here's what I'm guessing is the right part: http://www.tmtractor.com/new/pt/155fp.htm

Hi,
No, that listing is for the bearing at the rear of the PTO, by the oil seal.

I would leave the roller bearing at the rear of the clutch shaft, in front of the shield with the scraping marks alone, I don't think it can be pulled out with the clutch shaft in place.
Maybe someone on here has done it before.
The bearing is in front of the shield, the shield is just a thin sheet metal type shield that fits in the hole, it isn't part of the bearing. It doesn't matter that the shield is scraped part way through.

Below is a listing for a new bearing, it is in TM Tractor's transmission section.

http://www.tmtractor.com/new/tr/128fp.htm

I posted TM Tractor's link for the PTO pilot bushing in my 3rd post on page 1 of this post. I explained about it there also.

I would buy the new ball bearing for the PTO shaft, if you are buying a new shaft, it is easier than removing the old bearing.
The bearing is usually tight, and needs pressing on or off.
You may need to take the shaft and new bearing to a shop with a press to have the new bearing put on.

Don't hammer directly on a ball bearing, or bushing when installing them.
Don't hammer on the outside area of a ball bearing, drive only on the inner part of it, next to the shaft.

Don't hammer directly on a new oil seal, it will dent the seal. There are seal driving tools made.
You can use flat clean metal, and put on the seal, hammer on the metal.
The new PTO oil seal, at the rear of the PTO is thinner than the original seals were.
When the PTO assembly is together again, before putting it in the transmission housing, I use a grease gun on the fitting, then I can see grease come out by the bearing and shield.
It takes some grease to fill the area between the bearing and seal.

You didn't say if the hole for the pilot bushing is worn bigger than it should be.
If it is, and the bushing fits loose in the hole it goes in, because of wear in the end of the shaft, you will just need to put the bushing in loose, it will fill some of the room.
Put some grease in the pilot bushing and on the front end of the shaft that goes in the bushing when putting it together. If the bushing is loose in the hole, put grease on the OD of it also.

You need to remove the PTO lever, that you shift with your hand, to remove the Lever and Shaft.
The hand lever goes in the end of the Lever and Shaft.
The lever has a cotter key at the bottom of it. Push it down, compressing the spring and remove the cotter key.
Another person might be handy, to hold the lever down.

Below is a listing at TM Tractor for the lever, you can look at the pics, it has a pic of how it is assembled.

http://www.tmtractor.com/new/pt/172fp.htm

The listing at TM Tractor says a new setscrew comes with the PTO clutch.
You probably need an allen wrench for it.
The setscrew goes on the flattened area of the shaft.
Be sure to put the clutch on the shaft the right way.
Do not tighten the setscrew on the shaft, it has to be loose enough that the clutch slides freely forward and back. But it has to be in far enough to keep the clutch from falling off the end of the shaft.
I think its purpose is to keep the clutch from falling off the shaft during assembly.
If the setscrew turns too freely in the hole, you should buy some locktite, and put on the threads as you put the clutch on the shaft.
Let it dry before putting the PTO in the housing.
The clutch must be free to slide the 1", my guess, on the shaft.

You may need to remove the bolt on the corner of the gear shift cover, holding the PTO lever, so the lever can go farther ahead, to put the PTO in the housing, and get the pin in the slot.
Look in through the trans oil filler hole with a light when putting the PTO in the housing. It makes it easier. :)

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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby marshall » Thu Aug 11, 2022 8:55 am

The parts I ordered (so far) are the clutch collar that comes with an allen set screw and PTO lever pin and some new gaskets for the two covers. The bearings on the PTO shaft that I see look fine (with some cleaning + grease). That scraped cover I'm leaving in place as Glen advised. This means I'm not messing with the main shaft either. I can't see much that is exposed. I'd like to reassemble with the new parts at this point and see if the new lever pin and clutch collar do the trick since that was where the obvious wear was. The order of reassembly is tricky and I think I need to understand how the PTO engages/disengages a bit.
It sounds like the clutch collar needs to be first fitted onto the main shaft such that the lever pin is riding inside the slot of the collar. If I recall the set screw side is facing inward toward the main shaft, right? The set screw shouldn't be too tight and I'll use some locktite on the allen screw so that it won't rattle off. Once this is mounted on the shaft, then I'm going to try insert the PTO shaft into the main shaft.

I guess what I'm wondering about is how the PTO shaft interfaces with this. The collar clutch also fits on this. So I'm wondering if the way this all works together is that when the PTO lever is in the back position, it moves the collar forward where it is exclusively on the main shaft so that the PTO does not turn, then moving the lever in the other direction to front, it transfers the clutch collar onto the PTO shaft (fully or partially) so that main shaft and PTO shaft turn together. This seems like a tricky thing to get aligned. Do you typically have the PTO lever all put together with spring and cotter pin inserted when you attempt to get all this together? Or do you leave that until the clutch and lever pin are all together with the PTO shaft and main shaft all mated up and then finally insert the cotter pin and bolt the lever to its mount?

Ultimately, Im probably going to have clutch adjustments to make in the gears as well but that will be a second project after I get this PTO back together so I can get a sense of whether I've helped the situation or not. Also, if someone could drop the recommended gear fluid in here that would be great. On a recent visit to Tractor Supply, I wasn't sure what product they have is acceptable. My other alternative store sells Kubotas with a number of oil weights but they nothing about Cubs so can't recommend something compatible.

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Don McCombs
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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby Don McCombs » Thu Aug 11, 2022 10:12 am

This is what I use in the transmission, finals and steering.

https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/produ ... 3-2-gallon
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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby marshall » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:10 am

I see this Travellers product is $119 for 2 gallons which is a lot given that 3 1/2 pints is what it takes to fill the transmission.

Just wondering if something like this SAE 90 gear oil for $16.99 would do fine https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/carquest-grease-and-lube-ep-90-gl-4-gear-oil-1-gallon-990-01/10899976-p?c3ch=PLA&c3nid=10899976-P&adtype=pla&product_channel=online&store_code=&gclid=CjwKCAjw0dKXBhBPEiwA2bmObeBo-FlhziQbd-wQYxyb0PGaqTEBl4JbHBTmsfpnBR-OGluCHLb7zBoCTyEQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

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Don McCombs
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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby Don McCombs » Thu Aug 11, 2022 11:36 am

I think the product I referenced is available in 1 gallon containers, also. Your link to Advance Auto doesn’t seem to work, but it should be fine.
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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby Glen » Thu Aug 11, 2022 6:40 pm

Hi,
The Cub has a simple working PTO, it is either engaged, or off.

Read my posts on page 1 of this post again, except for the 2nd post, it is about the engine clutch.
It's been some weeks ago since you first posted on page 1.
Read the PTO section in the Cub service manual that I posted in my 3rd post on page 1 of this post.

marshall wrote:It sounds like the clutch collar needs to be first fitted onto the main shaft such that the lever pin is riding inside the slot of the collar.

Yes, that is how it works.

1st, put the new PTO clutch it is called on the PTO shaft, with the slot forward, towards the front of the Cub.
The setscrew goes in the flattened place on the shaft.
Turn it in tight, then back it out about 1/4th turn, or just enough that the clutch moves freely on the shaft.
The clutch has to move freely on the shaft.
The setscrew keeps the clutch from falling off the shaft during assembly, when you put the PTO in the housing.

Please say if the new setscrew turns easy or hard in the new PTO clutch threads.

The setscrew can't turn easy, it can fall out during use.
Using the Locktite on it, like you said, is the safest way.

The next thing to put together is replace the Lever and Pin part, in the transmission case, you can't do that when the PTO is in the housing.

Did you remove the old Lever and Pin part, you didn't say.

Assemble that part fully, put the hand lever and small spring on it, and the cotter key in the bottom of the hand lever.
Be sure it works right, the hand lever has to move freely up and down, except for the spring pushing up on it.
The hand lever has to move freely forward and back, to engage or shut off the PTO.

Please say if it does.

When putting the PTO in the housing remove the transmission filler plug, and look in with a light, like it says in the service manual. It makes it easy to see when the pin is in the slot of the PTO clutch.

You may need to remove the bolt from the corner of the gear shift cover, holding the PTO shifter Guide it is called, so the hand lever will go farther ahead, that lets the pin go farther to the rear during assembly.


You didn't say anything about this below, that I wrote in the post on page 1, the bushing needs fixing if it is wornout.

There is a PTO pilot bushing in the end of the shaft that runs the PTO.
It looks like it is wornout and gone in your pic, I can't see it too well in your pic.
It is another common thing that wears out on Cubs.
People on here have said the PTO wouldn't shift into engaged right when the bushing was worn.
Below is a listing for it at TM Tractor.
If you have a dial caliper, measure the size of the hole in the end of the shaft, and the front end of the PTO shaft.
There should only be a few thousandths difference in the sizes.

http://www.tmtractor.com/new/pt/752fp.htm

The front end of the PTO shaft is supposed to be smooth to run in the PTO pilot bushing, yours needs smoothing with fine sandpaper, if you don't replace the shaft.
Below is a listing for a new PTO shaft. You can look at the pic, it shows it is smooth at the front.

http://www.tmtractor.com/new/pt/514fp.htm

Below is a pic from TM Tractor of the rear of the clutch shaft, showing the PTO pilot bushing. :)
Attachments
Cub trans shaft 7.jpg
Cub trans shaft 7.jpg (11.37 KiB) Viewed 83 times

marshall
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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby marshall » Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:33 pm

Glen. I'm ordering a PTO pilot bushing and while I'm at it I'm thinking I might as well get a new throw-out bearing if its not really expensive. It'll be for when I take on repairs and adjust pressure plate fingers in the clutch which seems to be metal-to-metal too quickly with free-play correctly set. On TM tractor I can't find anything that looks like the throwout bearing you posted. Is there a manual page showing these clutch parts relevant to a 50 Cub, how they go together, and maybe how to set the height of the pressure plate fingers such as you were describing?

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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby marshall » Sat Aug 13, 2022 2:41 pm

Just realized I don't want to split the Cub in order to deal with throw-out bearing. I'll keep the parts order to PTO-related stuff only but will still need some clutch adjustment refs.

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Re: PTO / Gear grinding

Postby Bob McCarty » Sat Aug 13, 2022 3:03 pm

The throw out bearing is called the clutch release bearing on TM's site.
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