Sickle bar mower, PTO, grinding noise

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Julien
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Re: Sickle bar mower, PTO, grinding noise

Postby Julien » Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:16 pm

Thanks for your help!
Prior to attempting to insert the pilot bushing per the instructions in the referenced How To post, I figured I would clean the hole a bit more and do a final inspection. The old bushing is definitely still in there. There is nothing towards the rear of the hole, where the PTO shaft enters, so I guess it is either worn down there, which is why it was harder to tell from a head on view, or it is pushed further back in the hole--not sure if that is even possible. In any case, I left whatever was in there as is and proceeded with re-installing the PTO assembly.
Thanks for the point about removing the guide plate, that did the trick.
As of now, the assembly is back in place, and it has been tested without the mower and the output shaft did rotate.
The issue I am facing now is that the shaft I have has two splines which have a cut out for the clutch set screw to slide in, and I'm not sure which is the best groove to use or if I need to buy a new shaft all together.
When I reinstalled the clutch to the shaft I first had it in the groove which is slightly longer but more worn down on the back end. The shifter rod moved well to its front and rear position and the PTO engaged and disengaged. However, I was concerned that the set screw might slide out of the groove, being that it is so worn down. I then removed the assembly and moved the set screw to the groove which is slightly shorter but more cut out. When I reinstalled the assembly, the shifter rod wouldn't go all the way to the front position in the guide plate. As far as I could tell the clutch fully engaged and disengaged. I am wondering if that is a problem. I was hoping to use the shaft that I currently have for the sake of convenience. Not really sure why there are two cut out splines on the shaft.
Wanted to make sure everything was right on with the assembly installation before I go ahead and reattach the mower and do the final test to see if it will stay engaged.
Thanks

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Re: Sickle bar mower, PTO, grinding noise

Postby Dale Finch » Sun Oct 31, 2021 10:46 pm

I see in your photos of your PTO shaft on the previous page, there is a slot as well as a deep scar. I believe in this photo of TM's PTO shaft, you can see the slot on the top of the right side end. Does yours look like that?

I think if you remove any burrs where that gouge is, so that the clutch can slide smoothly, it should be OK. If the forward end of that slot is worn, see if you can tighten the set screw so it still allows movement, but still keeps the clutch in place.
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Glen
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Re: Sickle bar mower, PTO, grinding noise

Postby Glen » Mon Nov 01, 2021 1:40 am

Hi,
If the PTO pilot bushing is worn to a bigger size, I would replace it.
People have said on here that they couldn't shift the PTO into engaged when the bushing was worn.
I think it's because the mower belt at the rear of the PTO shaft, pulls the shaft to the side, so the front of the shaft goes to the side too. If the pilot bushing is too big an ID, then the splines on the PTO clutch are out of alignment, to the side also, and the PTO won't engage.

There is a post in the How To section telling about replacing the bushing.
He screwed a bolt into the old bushing, and made it come out.
Below is the post.

viewtopic.php?f=142&t=21506

I would try to figure out which place on the shaft is the original place for the setscrew, and use that place, unless it was damaged somehow, and someone modified the shaft.

Below is a listing for a new PTO shaft at TM Tractor, you can look at the pic.
The original place for the setscrew is flat, and has a small bit of the spline's original height at the front, to keep the PTO clutch from falling off the shaft, probably when removing it from the tractor, or putting it in. :)

http://www.tmtractor.com/new/pt/514fp.htm

Julien
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Re: Sickle bar mower, PTO, grinding noise

Postby Julien » Sun Nov 21, 2021 6:45 pm

Howdy,

Thanks for the help!
I haven't messed with the bushing anymore; still going piece by piece to see what it takes to get the mower working with the PTO.
I hooked up the mower again, and the PTO engaged and the mower ran while I had it in the high position with the hydraulic lift. However, when I lowered the mower to the ground to do a test cut, the whole assembly started shaking and the PTO disengaged. All of this PTO work is being done under the assumption that the mower itself is in good working order, which I am now not sure of. Unfortunately, I must confess I had not done my due diligence regarding hitting all grease points with grease, so I wonder if the bearing in the mower was tight. Everything has since been greased, but I had to take the mower back off, so further filed testing will have to wait once again.
I guess any resistance on the mower's part would be enough to disengage the PTO, even if the PTO is otherwise working fine? The mower seemed to be running fine for a while, only once I lowered it did it start to act up. Not sure why having it higher or lower would change things.
Upon removing the whole PTO assembly once again (at least I'm getting good at taking the PTO in and out), the splines on the PTO shifter clutch seemed more worn than I had previously observed, so a new one is in the mail. Once that is received and installed, I shall put the sickle bar back on and report what happens.
In the meantime, any suggestions regarding putting the shift lever collar back on? I got the right size cotter key, but I wasn't able to figure out how to get the collar on while leaving the cotter hole exposed.

Thanks!
Julien

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Glen
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Re: Sickle bar mower, PTO, grinding noise

Postby Glen » Sun Nov 21, 2021 8:45 pm

Julien wrote:I hooked up the mower again, and the PTO engaged and the mower ran while I had it in the high position with the hydraulic lift. However, when I lowered the mower to the ground to do a test cut, the whole assembly started shaking and the PTO disengaged.

Hi,
Cub 22 mowers shake some when running, and the Cub is not moving. They shake more at some engine speeds than at other speeds.
The mowers I have seen will move the front of the Cub up and down 1/2 inch or so, so the front tires are absorbing the up and down movement.
The bolts holding the mower on the Cub have to be tight, or the mower itself will shake around.
The bolts should be the IH tapered head bolts, if the areas on the brackets around the bolt holes have tapers.
Below is a listing at TM Tractor for the bolts. You can look at the pics and see if that is what you have.

http://www.tmtractor.com/new/gb/324fp.htm


Julien wrote:Unfortunately, I must confess I had not done my due diligence regarding hitting all grease points with grease, so I wonder if the bearing in the mower was tight. Everything has since been greased, but I had to take the mower back off, so further filed testing

The long shaft should turn easily if you have the pitman disconnected from the flywheel, at the front of the shaft. It should not be binding at all. Turn it using the bottom pulley at the rear, and see if it turns freely.
The shaft has a bushing at the front and rear of it.
You can also move the shaft up and down and see if there is looseness or wear in the bushings.
It should not move up and down, or sideways.

The pitman bearing should turn freely also.
The knife bar should slide almost freely back and forth. Sometimes they get tight when sitting, but will loosen up when used again.
You can oil all the hold down clips and places where the knife slides, so it works easier.
Turn the parts by hand and see if they turn freely.


Julien wrote:I guess any resistance on the mower's part would be enough to disengage the PTO, even if the PTO is otherwise working fine?

No, the PTO should never disengage by itself.
If the PTO and the splines that run it, and other parts are in good condition, the PTO will take the full power of the Cub engine through it, like when running a 59" or 60" rotary mower in heavy grass.


Julien wrote:In the meantime, any suggestions regarding putting the shift lever collar back on? I got the right size cotter key, but I wasn't able to figure out how to get the collar on while leaving the cotter hole exposed.

I'm not sure what you mean.
If you have the collar, lever, and spring in position, just push the lever down, turn the lever so you can see the cotter key hole, and put the cotter key in.
You might need to use a good light to see it.
Another person can hold the lever down, if needed.

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Re: Sickle bar mower, PTO, grinding noise

Postby Julien » Mon Dec 13, 2021 8:43 pm

Thanks Glen!

Regarding the shift lever and cotter key, as soon as I wrote that post I realized I had been trying to put it on wrong, hence why it wouldn't go on.

So if the mower was running freely for a little bit, especially before I lowered it, then is it safe to assume that the mower itself is running ok? Meaning, is there a reason why it could suddenly malfunction and move less freely during operation?

That is good to know about the mower shaking during normal operation. What you wrote about the bolts being tight makes me wonder if that is the main problem now. Maybe I didn't have everything tight enough, and when I lowered it and it started shaking, it shook out of engaged.

I do have some tapered bolts in my collection. Are they supposed to be used on all of the points where the mower is attached--the front part under the engine and the back part by the drawbar? I think I only have one or two and they were attached at the back by the drawbar when I bought the tractor. The ones for the front are definitely not tapered.

I haven't had a chance to hook the mower back up, but hopefully I will be able to in the next week or so, and I will report back on my findings.

As always, thanks so much for your help!
Julien

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tmays
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Re: Sickle bar mower, PTO, grinding noise

Postby tmays » Mon Dec 13, 2021 9:37 pm

The ones on front at the torque tube should be tapered also. Very important that those be tapered and tight. When the bar is lowered, the higher the outer shoe rises above the inner shoe, the more it will vibrate. If you have slopes or hills where you’re operating. Very important that everything be tuned correctly and all bushing have good fit. Slack anywhere will make vibration. Dull blades in combination with register not set right will cause vibration as the blade tries to cut. If there’s too big of a gap between guards and knives, grass will start to clog in the gap and cause a heck of a vibration.
Thomas

Julien
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Re: Sickle bar mower, PTO, grinding noise

Postby Julien » Mon Dec 13, 2021 10:11 pm

Thanks Thomas!

Good to know about the tapered bolts on the front. Thanks for all of the info about the mower parts and proper operating settings too. The property is almost enirely hills and slopes. didn't realize how many variables there were in this. Now I see that I need to give the whole set up a proper inspection.

Much appreciated,
Julien

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Re: Sickle bar mower, PTO, grinding noise

Postby Glen » Tue Dec 14, 2021 2:35 am

Glen wrote:Julien wrote:
I guess any resistance on the mower's part would be enough to disengage the PTO, even if the PTO is otherwise working fine?

No, the PTO should never disengage by itself.
If the PTO and the splines that run it, and other parts are in good condition, the PTO will take the full power of the Cub engine through it, like when running a 59" or 60" rotary mower in heavy grass.


Hi,
The PTO should never disengage by itself.
The only time it should disengage is when you push the lever down, and move the lever to the disengaged position.
Something is wrong with the PTO if it disengages by itself.
The splines that run the PTO might be worn.
Or someone might have put the clutch shaft bearing retainer and oil seal at the front of the transmission on backwards, then the clutch shaft can move forward 1/4" or so, making too big a gap between the splines at the rear end of the shaft, and the PTO clutch splines.

Something needs repair if the PTO keeps disengaging by itself.

You said above you were buying a new PTO clutch.

The Cub 22 Mowers usually turn easier when you let them down to level ground, because the bar is straight when it is on level ground.
The outer end of the bar is curved down some when it is up off the ground. That can make the knifes bind some when the mower is running.

The Cub 22 Mowers can have differences in some of the parts depending on the age of them.
Some of the brackets use the tapered head bolts, and some don't.
I would take out 1 bolt at the front mounting holes, and use a light and look closely at the bracket. If it is tapered around the hole in the bracket, it should have a tapered head bolt.
If 1 front hole is tapered, the other side is probably tapered too.

Some of the rear brackets have 1 bolt holding them on, and some have 2 bolts.

Below is a page from the 1952 Cub 22 Mower owner's manual, showing the rear bracket, they had 1 bolt in the pic.

http://www.farmallcub.info/manuals/cub- ... e%2011.jpg

Below is the whole manual, if you need it.

http://www.farmallcub.info/galleries/ci ... _Mower.asp

The newer mowers have 2 bolts.
If the bracket has 2 bolt holes, usually the lower hole on the bracket uses the tapered head bolt, and the upper hole uses a regular bolt.

Below is a page from the newer Mower operator's manual, showing the rear bracket.

http://farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.clea ... e%2014.jpg

Below is the whole manual, if you need it.
It is for 3 different mowers, made for 3 different models of IH tractors.

http://farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.clea ... index.html

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Re: Sickle bar mower, PTO, grinding noise

Postby tmays » Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:59 am

Reading Glen’s post, I didn’t realize some weren’t tapered on the front. If yours aren’t tapered, adding a lock washer should take care of the problem. Tapered or not, those bolts should be checked periodically for tightness
Thomas


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