Throwout bearing idea

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sevy
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Throwout bearing idea

Postby sevy » Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:39 pm

For those of you who have experienced failure of the auto type throwout bearings, what was the actual failure?

I just bought a HiVel auto type bearing to replace the brand new graphite one that fell apart last year, and I am considering gluing a thin layer of graphene or carbon/carbon to the face where the pressure plate fingers come into contact to reduce friction.

I may also have an entire "donut" of this material cut to replace the entire graphite part.

I was just curious if the failure point was due to the fingers and bearing interface?

Thanks!

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Re: Throwout bearing idea

Postby indy61 » Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:39 pm

I have never tried the auto style but from what I've read they fail because of the angle of contact.

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Re: Throwout bearing idea

Postby Crimson Tim » Fri Sep 10, 2021 6:03 pm

I have thought this would give you the best of both worlds, but figured there wouldn’t be enough room in there to pull it off. The bearing handles the rotation, but you still have graphite to fudge the misalignment. I would be keenly interested to see if you can make it fit and how well it holds up. If I ever get my loader rebuilt, I’ll be even more interested.

sevy
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Re: Throwout bearing idea

Postby sevy » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:23 pm

My neighbor just installed the HiVel in his cub, as our local IH/Case dealer can no longer get the graphite one. I helped him adjust it so it had a clearance gap, but honestly it moves through such a short arc that it didn't look like it was putting much lateral pressure on the bearing face. Looking at my old graphite one, the path worn by the three fingers looks wider than it actually is, as the graphite wears deeper into the graphite itself, the arc angle changes and widens the gap. The auto surface is always at the exact same location, so the only lateral pressure is that which occurs as the bearing first makes contact and then depresses the fingers to disengage the clutch. Since the face of the bearing doesn't need to turn, I'm thinking that the fingers would tend to gouge into the face a bit after it stops spinning once enough pressure is on it, leaving small straight skid marks, which would be randomly located depending on where in the rotation the face stopped spinning. A layer of graphene or carbon/carbon would let the fingers slide with no friction, and should eliminate the issue completely.
Of course, that still leaves the bearing itself to fail, and requires greasing, whereas a solid donut of carbon fiber would be equally slippery and need no lubrication. Another option would be to redesign the fingers and replace them with something that would be friendlier with the face of the bearing.
My daughter is an engineer with lots of knowledge in these exotic materials, so I will keep you posted as to what I come up with. Of course, cost and availability may be an issue, but a thin sheet of carbon fiber could be sandwiched between two sheets of plywood and cut with two hole saws to get the proper size to then glue onto the bearing face pretty cheaply. The bearing is $90 on its own.

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Don McCombs
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Re: Throwout bearing idea

Postby Don McCombs » Fri Sep 10, 2021 9:45 pm

CaseIH did discontinue the USA made TOB. But, to my knowledge, they still offer the Chinese made Gold Value version. Can anyone confirm that this is the case?
Don McCombs
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Re: Throwout bearing idea

Postby inairam » Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:46 am

I have used the auto-style TO bearings in a cub with an ih1000 loader. you use the clutch much differently with a loader. You are on it for longer periods than when cutting grass or farming. For standard cub applications, I use graphite TOB.

I would purchase a high-quality one and make sure the fingers are adjusted and grease the face of the bearing.

I think a number of members had problems early on with it. Maybe the bearing got better I do not know. My 130 and 140 have auto-style TO bearing so it is not something IH engineers were against.
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Re: Throwout bearing idea

Postby coppersmythe » Sat Sep 11, 2021 9:04 pm

Hello all from the middle of nowhere , southeast colorado. my '64 has a auto type throwout bearing . has worked fine for 3-4 years , no special "care" . a little noisey , but ....coppersmythe.........................................PS:my personal experience.........

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Re: Throwout bearing idea

Postby sevy » Tue Sep 28, 2021 6:48 pm

I bought a piece of 3mm thick carbon fiber from a guy online for $14, and used the appropriate 3M epoxy to adhere it to the bare metal of the bearing. I let it dry for two days, and then went to install it yesterday.
Unfortunately, with the touch control in place this time, my 4x4 frame and trailer jack couldn't be used, so I pieced some wood together and mounted the trailer jack on it, and it worked great until I went to wheel the rear end forward to reattach it. The wood tore out in slow motion, and I could only watch as the torque tube dropped to the floor.
Today I took my ladder up and used a come along to raise it back up, then put a friend's motorcycle jack under the torque tube and with my neighbor's help, we got it back together pretty quickly.
I took it for a spin, and the clutch feels good and doesn't grab. The carbon fiber facing should give those 3 steel fingers a nice hard and smooth surface upon which to engage, so hopefully it will last much longer than the new graphite one I put in last year.
Here are some pictures:

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Throwout bearing idea

Postby outdoors4evr » Wed Sep 29, 2021 5:36 am

Hope it lasts forever! I personally think the graphite was a sacrificial part. It was made softer than the fingers to keep the fingers from being worn off. On the numbered series, these TOB are metal surfaces and it seems to wear the fingers.

Glad you weren't crushed by the tractor. I think the key with the jack is bolting it to the torque tube.
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Re: Throwout bearing idea

Postby Don McCombs » Wed Sep 29, 2021 6:33 am

I'm having a difficult time understanding how the jack setup was attached to the tractor. Help me out, please.
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Re: Throwout bearing idea

Postby Rick Spivey » Wed Sep 29, 2021 7:46 am

Sevy, some additional questions. In your earlier post, you mentioned how your last graphite bearing lasted about 1 year. But you also mention that graphite bearings don't require lubrication like an automotive type bearing does. That is not correct. I am interested in how you prepared and maintained your graphite bearing. They should be soaked in oil for up to several days before installation, and they should be packed with grease (a type that will let the oil separate over time, so "cheap"). Additionally, the grease should be repacked probably at a rate of once per year, but maybe more often under "heavy" use, such as with a loader. I have had very little trouble, and no premature failures, using the graphite bearings. I read most often where people posting about their graphite bearing issues actually caused their own problem by not following proper preparation and maintenance.
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Re: Throwout bearing idea

Postby Winfield Dave » Thu Sep 30, 2021 8:47 am

Don McCombs wrote:I'm having a difficult time understanding how the jack setup was attached to the tractor. Help me out, please.

Don...Based on the photos and his description "so I pieced some wood together and mounted the trailer jack on it",
I don't believe the jack was mechanically attached to the tractor.
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Re: Throwout bearing idea

Postby Waif » Thu Sep 30, 2021 9:25 am

Should be interesting seeing the carbon fiber's performance over time.
A friction point I was looking at recently on my prosthetic leg has an almost gummy look. Friction results at that point as well.
Adding speed might add heat. User habit on clutch , and clutch use (riding it, take off method , ect.) may also factor...

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Re: Throwout bearing idea

Postby sevy » Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:05 am

Don McCombs wrote:I'm having a difficult time understanding how the jack setup was attached to the tractor. Help me out, please.

Thanks for the question Don. Last summer when I split my cub I used some 4x4's to make a frame which I bolted together with carriage bolts, to which I attached the trailer jack.
Image

This time, as I wasn't taking off the touch control, I took one half of the u-shaped bracket that mounts the plow to the bolster, and ran two 6" lag bolts into the top of a 4x4", then bolted the u-bracket to the rear two implement holes on the torque tube. The shear force was just too much when I tried to roll it back into place to recouple the cub, and down she went.

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Re: Throwout bearing idea

Postby sevy » Thu Sep 30, 2021 10:09 am

Rick Spivey wrote:Sevy, some additional questions. In your earlier post, you mentioned how your last graphite bearing lasted about 1 year. But you also mention that graphite bearings don't require lubrication like an automotive type bearing does. That is not correct. I am interested in how you prepared and maintained your graphite bearing. They should be soaked in oil for up to several days before installation, and they should be packed with grease (a type that will let the oil separate over time, so "cheap"). Additionally, the grease should be repacked probably at a rate of once per year, but maybe more often under "heavy" use, such as with a loader. I have had very little trouble, and no premature failures, using the graphite bearings. I read most often where people posting about their graphite bearing issues actually caused their own problem by not following proper preparation and maintenance.

Hi Rick, thanks for the question.
I bought the graphite bearing from Tim last summer, and he had presoaked it and gave it to me in a ziplock bag. I also soaked it and greased the zerk well before installation. It lasted for all 3 days of cutting hay, but then failed in the winter while plowing snow. When I finally took it apart this summer, it was obvious that no oil had soaked into the graphite, and the grease was in the grease groove, but also not penetrating. Whatever type of graphite it is, it does not have sufficient porosity to soak up lubricant like my old IH bearing did.


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