TWEEKING your valves and timing-Dyno results

Here's 3 graphs from CI Cubfest from '07. David Cole hooked his cub to the dyno and this is the results of the first test before any adjustments were done.
normal_David_Cole-before_valve_or_timing.jpg

Then David left and did some adjustments on the valves to make sure they were right and returned.
normal_David_Cole-_after_valve_adjust.jpg


He then went and checked and adjusted the timing. Here's those results. Every little bit helps making sure things are adjusted correctly.
normal_David_Cole-after_valve_and_timing_adjust.jpg


You can see by the graphs, you can pretty much change the engine performance with every adjustment and change where the peaks are. Are you looking for peak H/P or peak Torque and at what rpms are you looking for those peaks :shock:

Just remember LURKER CARL"S saying= "H/P gets to to the mowing field, but Torque cuts the grass"

This could get interesting,

Rick
 
The torque on the first chart, before adjustment, is so flat. I wonder why adjusting the valves made it drop off so dramatically after about 1400rpm? Also, can anybody fill me in on how this would effect performance such as cutting grass? Would the finely tuned and adjusted Cub mow along at maximum torque, i.e., the engine would run along at 1100rpm?

Man, it is SO interesting to have all these Dyno results! :D Thanks Rick!!! :{_}:
 
Yes, Trent, that is correct.

This is the reason why mower manufacturers recommend cutting grass at full engine speed. The governor is continuousing adjusting the throttle position to maintain this engine speed as the tractor mows grass. The governor is a cruise control for the engine, keeping it operating at a constant rpm.

When the tractor encounters an area where more torque is required to continue mowing at full engine speed with a wide open throttle, engine speed will drop. Because the torque curve of the engine peaks below the maximum engine speed, the engine is able to continue mowing through lush turf because the torque output increases as RPMs decrease.

When the operator purposely keeps the engine speed below maximum torque output, the engine stalls in lush turf because the torque output is now decreasing as RPMs decrease and rapidly loses the battle.
 
torque is what you looking for in the long run. For instance I had a old R model mack with a 237 HP engine. I developed about 800 lbs of torque. I n years later i installed a 300 HP mack engine. The torque spec for that engine was about 1200 ft lbs. I have to say the torque really made the difference in how it pulled. It was really day and night. a cub engien is only 9.9 HP but the torque is where you get the pull from. That comes from the 4 pistons. If you installed a 10 HP kohler in a Farmall cub tractor it wont run the tractor properly. That is because the kohler engine developes it max power at 3800 rpm, while the cub c-60 developes its max torque at 1800.
 
For those of us that have difficulty comparing the results, here are all 3 graphs overlaid.

dyno_results_with_adjustments.gif


Rick (Former CEO, Design Graphics) Dulas
 
I don't think you necessarily WANT torque to drop at higher RPMs. It's just the nature of the beast.

Ideally, torque and HP would just keep going up and up and up, so if we ran the Cub engine at 30,000RPM, we'd get something like a million HP :{_}:

What people need to understand is that a Horsepower is an AMOUNT of work. Torque is the actual "push" that pumps the water in the dyno.

Let's try a parable: A man is moving a brick pile from one place to another. Carrying one brick at a time, he can run back and forth between the piles and move 20 bricks a minute. His "horsepower," or output of work, is 20 bricks a minute, but the amount of effort, the "torque" he is putting into moving the bricks is very small.

Now let's say he starts carrying 10 bricks at a time. It takes him a minute to stagger from one pile to the other so his "horsepower" is now only 10 bricks per minute. The amount of effort he is putting into moving from one pile to the other, his "torque" is 10 times as great, though.

So, the Cub hits the thick grass, engine slows down, mower slows down, ground speed slows down. The Cub engine is actually producing more force, but isn't mowing as much grass.
 
To add a little to the explanation, A comparison between newer and older lawnmowers may help. A new riding lawn mower with an 18 horsepower engine mows just fine till it hits a really heavy clump of grass and loads down, sometimes to the point of barely making it through. Hit the same clump of grass with an older 16hp lawnmower, it loads down, then holds it's own and lugs on through. The difference is while the newer one has more horsepower, the older one (usually with lower rpm) and with lower hp has more torque at the lower rpm and pulls on through. Old timers called it lugging power.
 
Rick Prentice... If you collect the data, I'll do the statistical analysis to see if there are any causal relations between the variables. (I knew that someday, I'd find a good use for all those statistics courses :lol: )

Rick (multi-variate regression is my middle name) Dulas
 
Somewhere I read what the 2 extremes are for HP and Torque. Water wheel being the most torque and least HP. Turbine being the most HP and least torque.
 
John *.?-!.* cub owner":3inc1rl3 said:
To add a little to the explanation, A comparison between newer and older lawnmowers may help. A new riding lawn mower with an 18 horsepower engine mows just fine till it hits a really heavy clump of grass and loads down, sometimes to the point of barely making it through. Hit the same clump of grass with an older 16hp lawnmower, it loads down, then holds it's own and lugs on through. The difference is while the newer one has more horsepower, the older one (usually with lower rpm) and with lower hp has more torque at the lower rpm and pulls on through. Old timers called it lugging power.

Lugging power= Torque plus Flywheel mass/crank weight(mass) the newer machines don't have that much as the older machines did. Everything new is thinner and lighter thus cheaper. There is bottom end low rpm torque and high rpm horsepower engines to consider too. The bottomend torque comes from slow turning mass (flywheels) like the older hit & miss engines. I'm surprised no one has ever played with adding mass to the tractors (flywheels). The older JD's had it.
 
To add a little to the explanation, A comparison between newer and older lawnmowers may help. A new riding lawn mower with an 18 horsepower engine mows just fine till it hits a really heavy clump of grass and loads down, sometimes to the point of barely making it through. Hit the same clump of grass with an older 16hp lawnmower, it loads down, then holds it's own and lugs on through. The difference is while the newer one has more horsepower, the older one (usually with lower rpm) and with lower hp has more torque at the lower rpm and pulls on through. Old timers called it lugging power.
John.....I gotta differ with ya man. My new Land Pride 72" ZTR will mow like no old timer ever tried to. Tall grass don't even faze it. It pulls that 72" deck like its not even on there while providing a smooth windrow free cut at an honest 10mph on smooth ground. Its got a 24HP Honda and it do have the grunt you so speak of.
 
torque is what you looking for in the long run. For instance I had a old R model mack with a 237 HP engine. I developed about 800 lbs of torque. I n years later i installed a 300 HP mack engine. The torque spec for that engine was about 1200 ft lbs. I have to say the torque really made the difference in how it pulled. It was really day and night. a cub engien is only 9.9 HP but the torque is where you get the pull from. That comes from the 4 pistons. If you installed a 10 HP kohler in a Farmall cub tractor it wont run the tractor properly. That is because the kohler engine developes it max power at 3800 rpm, while the cub c-60 developes its max torque at 1800.

I paid for college as a teenager driving a semi alternating between two road tractors, a R model Mack with a 237 hp maxidyne engine and one with a 220 Cummins. The Mack engine had a broad torque range and had only a 5 speed transmission while the cummins had a narrower range and had a constant shift 13 speed. Both pulled the same but required more work , shifting, with the cummins. The actual torque is not all that important but the range of torque is important.
I expect the 300 hp Mack pulled better because it had 300 hp vs 237 hp of the smaller maxidyne engine. It is hard to compare when you have changes two variables.

I have a cub with a 11 hp Honda clone instead of the original c-60 engine and it will easily cut 3 1/2 foot tall grass in my fields with a 42 inch mower in first gear at normal lawn height of 2 inches. My MTD Lowes tractor with a 15 hp engine will do the same. A cub engine is an old low compression flat head design, bore larger than stroke, there was nothing high torque about it. A slow running engine does not necessary mean high torque, two different things. If you search the internet you can find power curves for older and newer Kohler engines and compare to the cub. The curves for the K series engines are very similar to the newer Kohler engines. Older does not always mean better. If you compare a curve from a larger kohler engine, look at the torque and hp at 2000 rpm and it will be higher than the cub engine. I kept hearing how high torque a gravely engine was so I looked at the power curve and it has lower hp and torque than any kohler is for a 30 cubic inch engine. The gravely just runs slower.

I have a small chipper shredder that has a large flywheel that serves as the plate for the chipper knives. It has a normal 3600 rpm briggs engine. A few years ago I slowed down the engine to see how slow it would run with that large flywheel, I did not measure the rpm but estimate it was running around 500 rpm. A large flywheel does not give more torque, just more inertia that lets the engine run slow. The briggs engine did not magically develop more torque because of the large flywheel it was just able to run slower because of the inertia of the flywheel.

I can take the spark plugs out of a cub engine, put the crank in the front, and easily turn the crank to over 40 ft-lbs of torque. If I mount my 4kw generator on the cub, spin the crank, and see how many light bulbs I could light, I would find the answer was zero, I can generate the torque but I cannot spin the crank fast enough to get the 8 hp needed for the generator. I could then hook up my woods 42 mower and I would be able to turn the crank but not fast enough to give the blade speed needed to cut grass. I can make the torque but not apply the torque with enough speed to be effective. The speed at which you apply torque is the horsepower, comes directly from the equation. Same thing with my Hester disc plow, I cannot move the tractor fast enough to clear a furrow with the plow. The speed at which you apply torque is tremendously important ( horsepower), the actual torque is not. Torque can be changed through gearing to match the requirements but horsepower cannot. Horsepower can substitute for lack of torque but torque cannot ever substitute for lack of horsepower.

Although I normally agree with Lurker Carl: Torque is nice but Horsepower cuts grass. The blades have to travel at a certain speed which is horsepower not torque. However, the range of torque and therefor the range of horsepower is important. A broad range of torque and therefor a broad range of horsepower will get you through the clumps of thick grass without having to stop and shift to a lower gear. . A mack engine vs a cummins.
 
I paid for college as a teenager driving a semi alternating between two road tractors, a R model Mack with a 237 hp maxidyne engine and one with a 220 Cummins. The Mack engine had a broad torque range and had only a 5 speed transmission while the cummins had a narrower range and had a constant shift 13 speed. Both pulled the same but required more work , shifting, with the cummins. The actual torque is not all that important but the range of torque is important.
I expect the 300 hp Mack pulled better because it had 300 hp vs 237 hp of the smaller maxidyne engine. It is hard to compare when you have changes two variables.

I have a cub with a 11 hp Honda clone instead of the original c-60 engine and it will easily cut 3 1/2 foot tall grass in my fields with a 42 inch mower in first gear at normal lawn height of 2 inches. My MTD Lowes tractor with a 15 hp engine will do the same. A cub engine is an old low compression flat head design, bore larger than stroke, there was nothing high torque about it. A slow running engine does not necessary mean high torque, two different things. If you search the internet you can find power curves for older and newer Kohler engines and compare to the cub. The curves for the K series engines are very similar to the newer Kohler engines. Older does not always mean better. If you compare a curve from a larger kohler engine, look at the torque and hp at 2000 rpm and it will be higher than the cub engine. I kept hearing how high torque a gravely engine was so I looked at the power curve and it has lower hp and torque than any kohler is for a 30 cubic inch engine. The gravely just runs slower.

I have a small chipper shredder that has a large flywheel that serves as the plate for the chipper knives. It has a normal 3600 rpm briggs engine. A few years ago I slowed down the engine to see how slow it would run with that large flywheel, I did not measure the rpm but estimate it was running around 500 rpm. A large flywheel does not give more torque, just more inertia that lets the engine run slow. The briggs engine did not magically develop more torque because of the large flywheel it was just able to run slower because of the inertia of the flywheel.

I can take the spark plugs out of a cub engine, put the crank in the front, and easily turn the crank to over 40 ft-lbs of torque. If I mount my 4kw generator on the cub, spin the crank, and see how many light bulbs I could light, I would find the answer was zero, I can generate the torque but I cannot spin the crank fast enough to get the 8 hp needed for the generator. I could then hook up my woods 42 mower and I would be able to turn the crank but not fast enough to give the blade speed needed to cut grass. I can make the torque but not apply the torque with enough speed to be effective. The speed at which you apply torque is the horsepower, comes directly from the equation. Same thing with my Hester disc plow, I cannot move the tractor fast enough to clear a furrow with the plow. The speed at which you apply torque is tremendously important ( horsepower), the actual torque is not. Torque can be changed through gearing to match the requirements but horsepower cannot. Horsepower can substitute for lack of torque but torque cannot ever substitute for lack of horsepower.

Although I normally agree with Lurker Carl: Torque is nice but Horsepower cuts grass. The blades have to travel at a certain speed which is horsepower not torque. However, the range of torque and therefor the range of horsepower is important. A broad range of torque and therefor a broad range of horsepower will get you through the clumps of thick grass without having to stop and shift to a lower gear. . A mack engine vs a cummins.
That was well written. I think you and George Willer would get along good as he used to preach torque is nothing without HP. Just like the brick analogy....moving fewer bricks faster can get more work done than more bricks slower.
 
Back
Top