ether vs Carb cleaner

[Joeandmack]

I am up in the North East, a couple nights ago it was -9 and the weather is forecast for about the same with snow. I mainly use my 58 Cub for plowing, though I would like to eventually restore it. With the cold weather and starting I have heard people use Carburetor cleaners instead of diethyl ether based starter fluids. Why is that? After dusting off my high school chemistry I see that Carb Cleaners have more ingredients including a number of chemicals and compounds that have multiple carbon, hydrogen and oxygen groups, double bonds and rings.

Acetone, Xylene, Toulene Propane, Butanone, Ethyl Benzene, 2- Butoxyethanol... What I Found according to google

Whereas Diethyl Ether is a simpler cluster of carbon hydrogen bonds linked to an oxygen molecule. Is the thought process that more bonds are being broken and more energy released in carb cleaner than an Ether based engine starter, allowing more bang for your buck? Is combustion temperature the concern and damaging the engine?

If Carb cleaners are the way to go, are there some that should be avoided and others encouraged? Are there some compounds to be avoid or encouraged?

Can you tell it was a slow shift last night at work? I am by no means a chemist or a mechanic. Just curious what people who’ve been around Cubs longer than me think and what their logic is. Thank you.

-Joe

 

[tst]

if you need to use chemicals to make your engine start you have other issues, need good compression, spark and fuel and it will start, ether washes down the cylinders cleaning away the oil the pistons need, do not like to use it at all, if so just a small amount

 

[Don McCombs]

Because it’s cheaper, it’s multi-functional and it works.

 

[Jim Becker]

A couple more observations that are mostly baseless opinions:

Ether is pretty potent. If you use too much you can damage internal things.

Carb cleaner is probably as bad as ether at washing down the cylinders.

The most effective part of carb cleaner as a starting fluid is the propane propellant, while the actual cleaner is irrelevant.

 

[Super A]

Because it’s cheaper, it’s multi-functional and it works.

This right here......

Fortunately in eastern NC, we don't have much need for the nose candy in our diesels. On a stubborn gas burner seems like most anything sprayable and also flammable seems to work, at least to help determine if it won't start because of a fuel or a fire issue.

Al

 

[Don McCombs]

Agree with Jim and Al. Use it only to determine if you have a fuel supply issue. If you need to use it on a regular basis, you have maintenance to perform.

 

[Super A]

Agree with Jim and Al. Use it only to determine if you have a fuel supply issue. If you need to use it on a regular basis, you have maintenance to perform.

I honestly can count the number of times I have used nose candy on any of our actual farm tractors on my fingers, with over a hand's worth left over. Part of this is our climate, the other is good batteries. The 2940 has enough hours on it that it doesn't seem to start quite as good as it used to, but usually sawing the steering wheel back and forth will give it enough extra help to fire right up.

We disconnected the nose candy "turbo boost" can dispenser on the 4255 years ago.

Al

 

[Greenthumbfarms]

All the experienced mechanics around here always warned the evils of always relying on ether to start. I have heard that a motor will grow dependent on it to start, although the science behind that is fuzzy to me. I avoid using it until it becomes the last resort, and when needed use as little as possible. Block heaters, oil pan heaters, and thinner winter oil are always first choice.
We do have one tractor that we had bought that was a "crack addict" anytime below 60 degrees. It's due for a rebuild anyways, so I'm hoping that will cure it of that.
Not to say it won't damage a gasoline engine, but having an actual ignition source rather than just compression does make me more comfortable using it with gas engines instead of diesel.

 

[Super A]

All the experienced mechanics around here always warned the evils of always relying on ether to start. I have heard that a motor will grow dependent on it to start, although the science behind that is fuzzy to me. I avoid using it until it becomes the last resort, and when needed use as little as possible. Block heaters, oil pan heaters, and thinner winter oil are always first choice.
We do have one tractor that we had bought that was a "crack addict" anytime below 60 degrees. It's due for a rebuild anyways, so I'm hoping that will cure it of that.
Not to say it won't damage a gasoline engine, but having an actual ignition source rather than just compression does make me more comfortable using it with gas engines instead of diesel.

I've always heard about ether addiction but I think it's mostly an old wives' tail.

Al

 

[Jim Becker]

. . . I have heard that a motor will grow dependent on it to start, although the science behind that is fuzzy to me.

The explanation is fairly simple. You even provided it for us.

. . . We do have one tractor that we had bought that was a "crack addict" anytime below 60 degrees. It's due for a rebuild anyways, . . .

To elaborate, starting fluid largely came from the world of Diesel engines, where cold weather starting has always been a problem. Since Diesels depend on compression to cause ignition, a worn engine that has lost compression is even more difficult to start. A little whiff of starting fluid makes it start. So the operator of a mostly worn-out engine begins using starting fluid in case quantities. Meanwhile, the worn-out engine keeps getting more worn-out. Pretty soon, it is so worn out that it needs starting fluid when it is 80 degrees. Blame the ether!

 

[Clemsonfor]

. . . I have heard that a motor will grow dependent on it to start, although the science behind that is fuzzy to me.

The explanation is fairly simple. You even provided it for us.

. . . We do have one tractor that we had bought that was a "crack addict" anytime below 60 degrees. It's due for a rebuild anyways, . . .

To elaborate, starting fluid largely came from the world of Diesel engines, where cold weather starting has always been a problem. Since Diesels depend on compression to cause ignition, a worn engine that has lost compression is even more difficult to start. A little whiff of starting fluid makes it start. So the operator of a mostly worn-out engine begins using starting fluid in case quantities. Meanwhile, the worn-out engine keeps getting more worn-out. Pretty soon, it is so worn out that it needs starting fluid when it is 80 degrees. Blame the ether!

I was thinking the same thing. It allows you to start a worn motor longer and one day it won't hardly start at 90 degrees on anything.


I am a member of the vintage yanmar forum on another site. We have seen many instances where an owner used ether in those little Yanmars and cracked the cylinder lands , broke rings, or blew holes in the piston with just one use. Well tell everyone to keep that stuff in the cabinet, if you got away without damage count yourself lucky. I have never used it in my little diesel and never will. I have seen many people come there that did it the first time and it was their last time with that engine!! (Because the blew a hole in a piston etc) These are not just people who have never done anything these are people that had used tractors before or been around them for years doing this in other things, do it first time in the little twin diesel and boom .

 

[SamsFarm]

A gas tractor should start fine without it once you learn the quirks of that perticular tractor! (As long as it is functioning properly)


If a diesel has glow plugs or a intake pre-heater, then starting fluid is a big No No!!!

There was a time where diesels standard starting procedure included starting fluid for cold weather.

Many diesel tractors from the 60's, 70's, probably even the 80's too, had some factory gizmo that you could access from the operators seat. Some even had a system mounted to the tractor, operated with a electric button in the tractor cab.

 

[Super A]

Many diesel tractors from the 60's, 70's, probably even the 80's too, had some factory gizmo that you could access from the operators seat. Some even had a system mounted to the tractor, operated with a electric button in the tractor cab.

That would be the turbo boost button. I have heard tales of hired hands not understanding what it was for and blowing an engine with it. We disconnected ours years ago on the JD 4255.

Al

 

[cobra2411]

If a diesel has glow plugs or a intake pre-heater, then starting fluid is a big No No!!!

Best answer is not to use starting fluid. If you have to, make sure such systems are deactivated or it's likely you'll damage the engine.

Also, just give it a wiff, don't hose it down... A little goes a long way... Now if the engine is trash with no compression then you may need to really lay into the ether...

 

[SamsFarm]

Many diesel tractors from the 60's, 70's, probably even the 80's too, had some factory gizmo that you could access from the operators seat. Some even had a system mounted to the tractor, operated with a electric button in the tractor cab.

That would be the turbo boost button. I have heard tales of hired hands not understanding what it was for and blowing an engine with it. We disconnected ours years ago on the JD 4255.

Al

:lol:

Nitrous button!

 

[Joeandmack]

Appreciate all of the insight. I’ll certainly avoid the stuff at all cost now. Thanks for forthright opinions,

 

[jckengr]

During my college days I had a snow removal route with which I used a '47 cub (first cub sold by my father's IH dealership). Even with a good condition engine, cold weather starting at temps below 20 degrees was probably going to be hit or miss. The sure- fire fix was tea kettle (approx. 3 quarts) of boiling water poured on the intake manifold. I suggest two contributors to this was poor intake distribution of fuel and the lower compression engine (compared to later engine development). Also consider the cub is an updraft carb compared to automotive downdraft applications as well as the IH F-12-14. I have 2 things to suggest that improve cold weather starting A) compression increase to approx 7;1 & B) use of a 12 volt electrical system which made my '50 cub much easier starting in cold weather.

John K