Charging problem

C

cst010

Active member
Would like to verify my steps here and what I believe is the issue before moving forward.
1950 cub. Purchased as a non-running machine. Have it running well but does not charge; original owner does not recall if it was charging when parked. Wiring is ok--not great but not terrible either. Polarized generator by touching A terminal to Bat on voltage regulator--still not charging.
Troubleshooting steps so far:
  • Cleaned all connection points ensuring connections are clean, bright, and tight. Includes mounting points for generator and voltage regulator.
  • Checked the voltage regulator cleaning contact points (2 relays inside).
  • Removed belt from generator and tried spin test--generator will not motor unless I spin the pully, then motors.
  • Removed the generator from the tractor and removed the dust cover. Generator has three brushes which I believe calls for a cutout relay vs. voltage regulator.
  • Tested resistance from the "F" terminal to the case and have about 4 ohms of resistance.
  • Tested generator output by spinning the generator using a socket and drill. Tested from A terminal with hot lead and ground lead to case--nothing on voltmeter (ensured voltmeter was working). Not sure if my drill spins the generator fast enough.

I believe the generator is faulty and needs internals rewired. Getting lost on how to rewire the internals or if I should take the generator to a rebuild shop. If I take to a shop, what would I ask for to have them rewire the internals to have a generator with three brushes work with a voltage regulator? Tractor has a three-position light switch.

Thanks in advance for your comments.
 
cst010 said:
Would like to verify my steps here and what I believe is the issue before moving forward.
1950 cub. Purchased as a non-running machine. Have it running well but does not charge; original owner does not recall if it was charging when parked. Wiring is ok--not great but not terrible either. Polarized generator by touching A terminal to Bat on voltage regulator--still not charging.
Troubleshooting steps so far:
  • Cleaned all connection points ensuring connections are clean, bright, and tight. Includes mounting points for generator and voltage regulator.
  • Checked the voltage regulator cleaning contact points (2 relays inside).
  • Removed belt from generator and tried spin test--generator will not motor unless I spin the pully, then motors.
  • Removed the generator from the tractor and removed the dust cover. Generator has three brushes which I believe calls for a cutout relay vs. voltage regulator.
  • Tested resistance from the "F" terminal to the case and have about 4 ohms of resistance.
  • Tested generator output by spinning the generator using a socket and drill. Tested from A terminal with hot lead and ground lead to case--nothing on voltmeter (ensured voltmeter was working). Not sure if my drill spins the generator fast enough.

I believe the generator is faulty and needs internals rewired. Getting lost on how to rewire the internals or if I should take the generator to a rebuild shop. If I take to a shop, what would I ask for to have them rewire the internals to have a generator with three brushes work with a voltage regulator? Tractor has a three-position light switch.
Thanks in advance for your comments.
Click to expand...
Unless you are determined to keep the OEM charging system intact, you will have a more dependable better operating system for less money invested if you convert to a one wire, self exciting, internal regulating alternator. Here's one but if you shop around you can get one for a lower price. JMHO Stan
 

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1950 could have a cutout relay or regulator, relay type bolts on top of the generator, here is flow charts to help check it out
 

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In 1950 the regulator type system used a generator with a non-adjustable third brush. The cut-out system used an adjustable third brush. Your drill probably didn't spin it fast enough to prove anything. Even if fast enough, it probably wouldn't produce anything without grounding the F terminal. Your semi-failed spin test suggests it needs new brushes and the commutator on the armature cleaned up. It could be a bad armature, but less likely. If you have a local electrical shop, they could test it and give you a quote for fixing whatever they find.
 
cst010 said:
Checked the voltage regulator cleaning contact points (2 relays inside).
Click to expand...
Hi,
It sounds like you have a Cub serial number 115403 and above, that is when IH started using the voltage regulator, and Battery Ignition unit on Cubs. That was during 1950.
The cutout, or Relay IH called it, has 1 coil of wire in it.
The voltage regulator has 4 posts for wires to connect to it, the relay has 3 posts.
If the voltage regulator is why it won't charge, sometimes they work if you file the points, and sometimes they don't work. Wipe off all filings with a clean rag.

cst010 said:
Removed the generator from the tractor and removed the dust cover. Generator has three brushes which I believe calls for a cutout relay vs. voltage regulator.
Click to expand...
The voltage regulator on Cubs uses a 3 brush generator from mid 1950 - mid 1962. About 12 years of Cubs used that. During 1962 IH changed to a 2 brush gen.
The Cub parts manual shows it.
The mid 1950's Cubs I have seen have the 3 brush gen and the voltage regulator.
The original Delco gen model number used beginning in mid 1950 is 1100501, for a few years.
The number is on the plate on the gen, at the left side of the plate. You can check and see if your Cub has that number.
Below are pages from the 1955 Cub operator's manual showing the electrical system, and where the voltage regulator originally is. It goes on a bracket at the gen bracket bolts.
The 1st pic shows the wiring routing, if you need that, I think the pic wasn't in older Cub owner's manuals.
https://farmallcub.club/rudi/farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.cleancomputes.com/Cub/Cub Owner's Manuals/McCormick Farmall Cub Operator's Manual 12-20-55/Page 49.jpg

The 2nd pic shows the electrical system. The numbers in the pic on the 1st page are explained in the info in the upper part of the 2nd page. :)
 
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Glen said:
Hi,
It sounds like you have a Cub serial number 115403 and above, that is when IH started using the voltage regulator, and Battery Ignition unit on Cubs. That was during 1950.
The cutout, or Relay IH called it, has 1 coil of wire in it.
The voltage regulator has 4 posts for wires to connect to it, the relay has 3 posts.
If the voltage regulator is why it won't charge, sometimes they work if you file the points, and sometimes they don't work. Wipe off all filings with a clean rag.


The voltage regulator on Cubs uses a 3 brush generator from mid 1950 - mid 1962. About 12 years of Cubs used that. During 1962 IH changed to a 2 brush gen.
The Cub parts manual shows it.
The mid 1950's Cubs I have seen have the 3 brush gen and the voltage regulator.
The original Delco gen model number used beginning in mid 1950 is 1100501, for a few years.
The number is on the plate on the gen, at the left side of the plate. You can check and see if your Cub has that number.
Below are pages from the 1955 Cub operator's manual showing the electrical system, and where the voltage regulator originally is. It goes on a bracket at the gen bracket bolts.
The 1st pic shows the wiring routing, if you need that, I think the pic wasn't in older Cub owner's manuals.
https://farmallcub.club/rudi/farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.cleancomputes.com/Cub/Cub Owner's Manuals/McCormick Farmall Cub Operator's Manual 12-20-55/Page 49.jpg

The 2nd pic shows the electrical system. The numbers in the pic on the 1st page are explained in the info in the upper part of the 2nd page. :)
Click to expand...
This is what the tractor has, VR with four posts. The number on the generator is 100501 OH30. Believe I will carry the generator to repair shop for testing.
Thanks all.
 
cst010 said:
This is what the tractor has, VR with four posts. The number on the generator is 100501 OH30. Believe I will carry the generator to repair shop for testing.
Thanks all.
Click to expand...
They will want your voltage regulator as well, so they can properly “tune” them. I had my generator rebuilt about 15 years ago and they wanted my VR.
 
cst010 said:
The number on the generator is 100501 OH30.
Click to expand...
If you meant the number is the same as I posted above, you left off a 1.

The other number is a code telling when it was made.
The 0 is the last number of a year ending in 0, it could be 1950, if it is the original gen.
The H is the month in letters, H is the 8th month, so it was made in August.
The last 2 numbers are the day of the month, the 30th.
 
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Glen said:
If you meant the number is the same as I posted above, you left off a 1.

The other number is a code telling when it was made.
The 0 is the last number of a year ending in 0, it could be 1950, if it is the original gen.
The H is the month in letters, H is the 8th month, so it was made in August.
The last 2 numbers are the day of the month, the 30th.
Click to expand...
Thanks. Photo of the plate.IMG_1024.png
 
save yourself a LOT of trouble and take it to auto electric shop!!! PLUS possible more damage you will do to it trying to mess with it.--- gens, alts, mags, diesel injection pumps all require test equipment and know how that not many people have!! Take it to the pro!!! cost around here is over $200 ---- cheeeeper to install alt and never look back!! --- plus alts have less trouble down the road!!
 
SONNY said:
save yourself a LOT of trouble and take it to auto electric shop!!! PLUS possible more damage you will do to it trying to mess with it.--- gens, alts, mags, diesel injection pumps all require test equipment and know how that not many people have!! Take it to the pro!!! cost around here is over $200 ---- cheeeeper to install alt and never look back!! --- plus alts have less trouble down the road!!
Click to expand...
I would prefer to keep it 6 volts, but that is not firm.
Had the generator rebuilt. Installed and polarized by jumping A terminal on generator to BAT terminal on regulator--did get a spark. Started the machine and still no charge. By passed the regulator by shorting the F terminal on the generator to ground (at the battery) and still read 6.2 volts across the battery terminals. When I remove the cover of the regulator, I do see one of the relays sparking constantly (blue spark). So, at this point I'm not sure if the regulator is bad or if the generator rebuild is faulty. I do see the ammeter jumping around between discharge and 0--not sure if this in any indication of a fault somewhere or not.
Any suggestions on where to go next is appreciated!
 
follow the flow chart in earlier post, if you ground the field terminal on the generator should peg the ampmeter
 
Hi,
I'm not sure if it was said above, the engine has to be running above slow idle speed for the generator to charge.

cst010 said:
When I remove the cover of the regulator, I do see one of the relays sparking constantly (blue spark).
Click to expand...
In the voltage regulator, one set of points is open when the engine is off, and closes when the engine is running above slow idle speed, that set of points turns the charging system on or off.
The other set of points is always closed, it controls the voltage, or amount of charge shown on the ammeter. That set of points usually sparks between the points, it opens and closes slightly, controlling the voltage to where the voltage has been set to, when the engine is running above slow idle speed.
If you see it sparking, there is power there at the points.

cst010 said:
I do see the ammeter jumping around between discharge and 0--not sure if this in any indication of a fault somewhere or not.
Click to expand...
If the ammeter pointer is wiggling from 0 to about 1/8" or 1/4" towards discharge, that is how it works with the engine running, and without the system charging. It is the ignition points opening and closing, showing on the ammeter. :)
 
Glen said:
Hi,
I'm not sure if it was said above, the engine has to be running above slow idle speed for the generator to charge.


In the voltage regulator, one set of points is open when the engine is off, and closes when the engine is running above slow idle speed, that set of points turns the charging system on or off.
The other set of points is always closed, it controls the voltage, or amount of charge shown on the ammeter. That set of points usually sparks between the points, it opens and closes slightly, controlling the voltage to where the voltage has been set to, when the engine is running above slow idle speed.
If you see it sparking, there is power there at the points.


If the ammeter pointer is wiggling from 0 to about 1/8" or 1/4" towards discharge, that is how it works with the engine running, and without the system charging. It is the ignition points opening and closing, showing on the ammeter. :)
Click to expand...
Thanks, this helps.

Worked on it again this evening. Went through all the steps from the flowchart to the point of grounding the F terminal. Did that and the ammeter still not showing a charge (engine at about 1400 RPM). Was about to jumper the BAT to GEN at the regulator when I thought I noticed the RPM's drop a little. Checked the ammeter and it was showing at positive 20. Not sure what happened. Anyhow does charge, at least for the moment. Will replace the regulator.

Next question. Looking at NAPA, a 6volt positive ground VR is almost $175.00 (Echlin VR851). Stiener has them for under $40. Is there that much of a difference between the two?
 
cst010 said:
(engine at about 1400 RPM).
Click to expand...
I think that is about the speed where the gen usually begins charging, the open set of points in the voltage regulator closes about then.
Try opening the throttle more after starting the engine, and see if it charges correctly.
Try it a few times and see if it works right.
There might be nothing wrong with the voltage regulator, if you weren't speeding the engine up enough.
IH changed the pulley on the fan hub that has the gen belt to a bigger diameter in the early 1950's, I think so the gen would begin charging at a slower engine speed.
A 1950 Cub would originally have the smaller pulley.

cst010 said:
Is there that much of a difference between the two?
Click to expand...
People on here have said that the lower priced voltage regulators don't work as good as the higher priced ones. They have said the lower priced ones quit.
They have said on here that Brillman online has good quality ones. I don't know, I haven't bought one from them. Maybe someone that has one from there will comment.
 
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6-v stuff is hard to find, dont last long, alway gives trouble, and EXPENSIVE to keep up. Guess its how deep are your pockets and personal pref! -- I go 12-v or 24-v on everything around here. Pref. alternators!
 
cst010 said:
Thanks, this helps.

Worked on it again this evening. Went through all the steps from the flowchart to the point of grounding the F terminal. Did that and the ammeter still not showing a charge (engine at about 1400 RPM). Was about to jumper the BAT to GEN at the regulator when I thought I noticed the RPM's drop a little. Checked the ammeter and it was showing at positive 20. Not sure what happened. Anyhow does charge, at least for the moment. Will replace the regulator.

Next question. Looking at NAPA, a 6volt positive ground VR is almost $175.00 (Echlin VR851). Stiener has them for under $40. Is there that much of a difference between the two?
Click to expand...
I highly recommend a Standard Motor Products VR214. I've had one on my one Super C going on 6 or 7 years now and still going strong. I have them on all my other small IH tractors and never a problem with any. They are made in the U.S.A. and seem to have some quality to them. I have purchased another brand at NAPA, and it lasted for 45 minutes while raking hay on the 240U.

They were around $100 at O'Reilly's Auto Parts the last one I bought, may be a bit more now but they last. Might try a Google search for a SMP VR214 for the best price.
 
foreign regulators are junk, they are no cheaper as you have to buy a few to get a good one, buy a USA one
 
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