Thanks for the recent help I received on here to get my starter motor working. The new brushes and cleaning it really make it sound a lot better and its cranking nicely. Unfortunately, now that its cranking its not starting and when I went to the other side of the tractor I see that fuel is leaking out of the carburetor heavily. I took the carb off cleaned out the main jet but take a look at the picture of the float where the needle remains in the upward position rather than dropping due to gravity as it should. So it seems a little sticky. It will move pretty well but can get stuck. So I'm wondering if this is probably what was causing all this gas to come leaking out of that black hose connection. Rather than flowing into the engine that needle is keeping a pathway closed so that gas flows into the wrong area? I've sprayed it with carb cleaner but that needle still is a bit sticky. What are your ideas for getting this carb back to where it is correctly functioning?
Carb leaking a LOT
- Thread starter marshall
- Start date
Don McCombs
501 Club
The needle and cage are the newer style with the Viton tipped needle. Those needles are notorious for sticking. Have you done work on this carb recently?
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staninlowerAL
501 Club
In addition to Don's comments, your picture of the needle valve shows it stuck in the closed position. I agree that it's got a problem but that's probably not the reason that it's not starting (unless you flooded it trying to start it). Turn the fuel valve off at the tank and do some troubleshooting to see if you've got fire at the points, then at the plugs. If that's all good, look at the plug wires from the distributor to the plugs and make sure they are connected as they should be. Firing order 1,3,4,2. Stan
EDIT: the black hose connection to the air cleaner is supposed to allow excess fuel to escape, as well as at the small felt covered hole on the bottom of the carb bowl.
For carburetor leaking as bad as it is, what do you suggest for the needle problem? Kit to replace parts? Some process of cleaning it ? (spraying with carb cleaner didn't seem to help on that needle). I'm pretty sure I did replace the gaskets and the needle a few years ago but it sits with ethanol gas in it so no surprise that there are problems again.
Do you really think with the gas leaking out of it as bad as it is (steady streams from some of those points ) that some of the gas is actually getting up into the cylinders where a spark would ignite it?
Do you really think with the gas leaking out of it as bad as it is (steady streams from some of those points ) that some of the gas is actually getting up into the cylinders where a spark would ignite it?
Don McCombs
501 Club
As far as the needle is concerned, if you still have the original brass seat and totally stainless steel needle, I would put them back in and reset the float level. If you no longer have them, I would contact Morgan at McDonald Carb & Ignition and order one of his new style needle and seat sets. His phone number is 706-367-4179. Again, reset the float height after replacement. See the attached sketch. In both cases, also adjust the carb to governor linkage per the attached article.
If the tractor still won’t start, I’d look at the ignition system for your issue.
If the tractor still won’t start, I’d look at the ignition system for your issue.
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Good that the starter works better, you didn't say if you replaced the 2 bushings in it. The bushings it had in your pictures are really worn out, it can't work right with worn out bushings, they are causing the armature to drag, touching the other parts inside the starter.
staninlowerAL
501 Club
1. You can replace the needle and seat assembly. Contact Morgan McDonald at McDonald Carb and Ignition for individual parts. You can probably just replace the assembly. And stay away from ethanol blended fuel or use a marine grade stabilizer.
2 Highly unlikely that the fuel will flow uphill to the cylinders as this is an updraft carb fuel system. That's why the excess fuel runs out of the lowest point of the carb. You could try to start it with the fuel valve at the tank shut off. First allow the carb bowl to partly fill then close the valve. If it's going to start it will run until the fuel in the carb is exhausted then die. Before you try all of this you should make sure there is spark at the plugs at the right time. JMHO Stan
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No, the needle valve turns the gas on or off from flowing from the gas tank, into the carburetor.
To leak like it did in your picture, the valve would probably be stuck open.
Or the valve doesn't seal when closed, and gas keeps flowing. There could be dirt in the needle and seat keeping it from stopping the gas flow.
So I did a nice job on the carb. Took the needle and float off and worked it with gumout and brush and got it back on and the tractor did start up without gas pouring out of the carb. In fact it roared better than I think I've ever heard it so maybe I got something out of that carb that was a longer problem.
It sat a couple hours, I pulled the starter a number of times and it was sputtering as it usually does but didn't start. Then pulling the starter switch and I'm back to the starter doing absolutely nothing. So it worked on maybe 5 pulls and then died. I used jumper cables from this battery which is freshly charged. No difference.
I got the brushes on there the way they should be and the switch has been replaced and makes good contact with the nub. I couldn't get the old bushings out but they looked alright (shiny copper colored).
I seem to remember someone mentioning that you could try turning the starter by rotating the fan or pushing the tractor a little bit to get the starter to a different position where it might function. Tried both those things and it didn't help. Having cleaned the starter up with new brushes and seeing/hearing it work nicely and now seemingly disconnected again just as it was before the brush project makes me think maybe there's some other problem with it that didn't get addressed. some kind of faulty internal connection or something. So if it needs someone to really overhaul it and get it working or else needs to be replaced can someone let me know what my options are. Mailing it to someone good is better than my taking it to a local tractor shop that works on Kubotas and might require that I tow the whole tractor to them for whatever fee they'd charge for that. This is a 12 volt tractor with J4 magneto system. Its a 6 volt Delco starter I'm told.
It sat a couple hours, I pulled the starter a number of times and it was sputtering as it usually does but didn't start. Then pulling the starter switch and I'm back to the starter doing absolutely nothing. So it worked on maybe 5 pulls and then died. I used jumper cables from this battery which is freshly charged. No difference.
I got the brushes on there the way they should be and the switch has been replaced and makes good contact with the nub. I couldn't get the old bushings out but they looked alright (shiny copper colored).
I seem to remember someone mentioning that you could try turning the starter by rotating the fan or pushing the tractor a little bit to get the starter to a different position where it might function. Tried both those things and it didn't help. Having cleaned the starter up with new brushes and seeing/hearing it work nicely and now seemingly disconnected again just as it was before the brush project makes me think maybe there's some other problem with it that didn't get addressed. some kind of faulty internal connection or something. So if it needs someone to really overhaul it and get it working or else needs to be replaced can someone let me know what my options are. Mailing it to someone good is better than my taking it to a local tractor shop that works on Kubotas and might require that I tow the whole tractor to them for whatever fee they'd charge for that. This is a 12 volt tractor with J4 magneto system. Its a 6 volt Delco starter I'm told.
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The bushings it had in your pictures are really worn out, it can't work right with worn out bushings, they are causing the armature to drag, rubbing on the other parts inside the starter.
There is a large worn area on the armature from it rubbing inside the starter, the armature should never rub in that area. The bushings need replacing. If you can't get the bushings out, I would find someone that can replace them.
Take just the starter, and the bushings to the shop, is probably all they need.
An automotive electrical repair shop can usually test the electrical parts of it, and see if they are good.
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Based on Glen's saying there's some wear spot on the armature from the worn-out bushings I went back into the starter today to see if I could check on the bushings and get them out. I couldn't get them out but I also can't see that they are worn out or anywhere that might be damaged because of them. If you can see it, please help me to see it too. I did a more thorough job of sanding and cleaning the armature. Can people take a look at this set of pictures and tell me:
- If things look clean in the right places
- Those windings seem to have some kind of red coating but you can see places where its worn off down to the shiny metal. Is that coating important or should it be shiny metal? Could the lack of it be causing shorts?
- I see no signs of the armature being bent or any damage. The slots are pretty clean and I got it pretty shiny including a good shining on the area that brushes are in contact with.
- The internals of the case. I tried cleaning a bit in there with light sandpaper and again it looks like there may be some kind of red coating on the plates but its surface is variable and there is exposed metal. Should I be sanding those plates till I see shiny metal or is supposed to be coated / iinsulated? I've sanded them some, but just don't know whether that was a mistake or if I should continue it until its uniformly shiny looking on the metal.
Or maybe I've already gone too far and this thing is toast. I'll take it to a shop to get the bushings removed but let me know if I'm probably wasting my time and ought to be thinking about buying a new starter
- If things look clean in the right places
- Those windings seem to have some kind of red coating but you can see places where its worn off down to the shiny metal. Is that coating important or should it be shiny metal? Could the lack of it be causing shorts?
- I see no signs of the armature being bent or any damage. The slots are pretty clean and I got it pretty shiny including a good shining on the area that brushes are in contact with.
- The internals of the case. I tried cleaning a bit in there with light sandpaper and again it looks like there may be some kind of red coating on the plates but its surface is variable and there is exposed metal. Should I be sanding those plates till I see shiny metal or is supposed to be coated / iinsulated? I've sanded them some, but just don't know whether that was a mistake or if I should continue it until its uniformly shiny looking on the metal.
Or maybe I've already gone too far and this thing is toast. I'll take it to a shop to get the bushings removed but let me know if I'm probably wasting my time and ought to be thinking about buying a new starter
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staninlowerAL
501 Club
And make sure they check the armature for an open circuit. If your starter armature stops on that faulty spot it won't work. Turning the engine manually does not turn the starter armature to a different position. If you want to remove the starter, rotate the armature to a different spot and reinstall it on the tractor. It might or might not work. JMHO Stan
EDIT: JMO, you're spinning your wheels and maybe not helping the problem I would either do the electrical checks or have a shop to evaluate the overall condition of the starter so you know what the problems are and decide on what to do to fix it. Stan
Thanks for the pictures.
It only takes a small amount of wear in the bushings to allow the armature to move to the side, and rub on the parts in the case. Any contact of the large part of the armature with the parts in the case means the bushings are worn out, and need replacing.
The bushings don't wear all the way through to be worn out, it only takes a small amount of wear for them to be worn out.
It's similar to the crankshaft bearings in the engine, it only takes a few thousandths of an inch of wear, and they are too loose, and wornout.
When the large part of the armature rubs in the case, it usually makes the starter run slower than it should, and drains the battery more when the starter is running, than when the starter is good.
The armature is fairly clean. I would clean more inside the case. Use a rag and a screwdriver, fold the rag so it is 2 or 3 thicknesses, and carefully push it through between the parts inside the case. Clean the metal of the case. Try to wipe the dirt off the electrical coils in the case.
The red coating was probably put on by someone rebuilding the starter in the past. The Delco 6 volt Cub starters I have seen don't have any red coating inside.
The coating isn't needed on top of the surfaces closest to the armature.
No, it is not toast.
No, it's not a waste of time to repair it and try to get it to work right.
The brushes and bushings are low priced, and may be all it needs to work right.
The shop can probably test the electrical parts of it to see if they are good.
They can put in the new bushings.
If you put them in, don't hammer directly on a new bushing. Put flat metal or something on the bushing to hammer on. The ends need to be on a solid metal surface when driving the bushings in.