'63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Farmall M, Super M, 400, 450 & 560 Tractors, 1939-1963
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phill_mi
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'63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby phill_mi » Sat Jan 21, 2023 5:12 pm

My 1963 Farmall 560 gas tractor, has a loader. I understand that the loader was an aftermarket attachment, which is controlled by the tractor's TC system. I have not found any identifying information on the loader which is painted red. There are a few places where orange paint is visible under the red paint. In other posts I detailed problems that began when I was brush-hogging the field, and drove into some brush only to have my front end drop into a large hole. I think this issue relates back to that experience as I notice that the steel hydraulic line that runs along the right arm of the loader is bent and the fitting at the elbow of the right loader arm is leaking when down pressure is applied, squirting a stream. I was able to minimize the leak by tightening the fitting but there is still a small leak. I took the fitting off and went to several rural auto parts stores (which generally stock tractor related parts) but they did not have the fitting and could not find it in their catalogs. They proposed alternative approaches but I am still searching for the same part.

This is a picture of the part. They tell me it is 3/8 FNPT thread all around. It has lettering on the part that says Anchor (and the image of a sea anchor), which seems to match the logo for Anchor Couplings, a subsidiary of Caterpillar. I did not find any info for this coupling on their web site.
The NAPA folks propose another part that differs in that the branch is identical to the two sides, which they say will also attach to the hose that currently has 3/8 male thread, and threads into this branch port. Is this good advice if I can't find the original part?
20230121_155330c.jpg


This shows the leak which comes down behind the coupler to the pipe. The pipe is about five feet long and is a little bowed, rather than straight. I guess it got bent when the front of the tractor went into that hole over the bushes (autumn olive and wild raspberries). Should I try to remove that pipe and try to straighten it, which might reduce angular pressure on this fitting and allow it to seal (if I cannot find a new one)? Is there any thread sealant that would help? There is a rubber o-ring like gasket inside that fitting but the parts store guy said it could not be replaced. He told me to use PTFE sealant and not oil resistant RTV. But I would prefer to find the correct part.
20230121_110803c.jpg


This is a top view of the fitting (rotated so that the right side is the top, sorry) with the pipe that has the green paint the one that bent. You might notice the uneven gap which is where it is leaking.
20230121_112505c.jpg


Thanks for any advice on how to solve this problem or find the correct parts. Phill

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Don McCombs
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Re: '63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby Don McCombs » Sat Jan 21, 2023 6:13 pm

If you have one in your area, I would go to an industrial supply business that makes up replacement hydraulic lines. They may be able to give you better advice and have a larger variety of fittings.
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Re: '63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby phill_mi » Sat Jan 21, 2023 7:20 pm

Thanks Don. I will plan to drop in on one of the fluid power distributors in my area next week.

I noticed on the pivot point for the loader arm there are the letters "16-HP" and the cylinders that tilt the bucket are labeled "011202414", if that helps identify the loader. But I hope a fluid power guy will be able to advise me on how to stop the leak without identifying the loader. Here are a few more pictures.

This is looking down on the right loader arm at the two steel hydraulic pipes that run on the inside of the arm. The bottom pipe is bowed out and was unattached from the arm, but I remounted it. It is the pipe which is leaking at the fitting.
20230121_181740c.jpg


This is a closeup of the "16-HP" mark on the left side of the pivot point of each arm.
20230121_181952c.jpg


This is a wider view of the left side of the loader with the "16-HP" mark at the pivot point.
20230121_182206c.jpg

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Re: '63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby Jim Becker » Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:38 pm

You might check this place. They have quite a few fittings.
https://www.discounthydraulichose.com/

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Re: '63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby Don McCombs » Sat Jan 21, 2023 11:15 pm

Take the fitting and all the photos with you.
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Re: '63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby ricky racer » Sun Jan 22, 2023 1:38 am

Phil, if the fitting is 3/8" FNPT all the way around these fittings should work. They don't look exactly the same but they should work for you. The pipe needs to be straightened out enough that the fitting can screw on without cross threading and the straighter it fits into the fitting the less likely it is to leak. These fittings seal on the end of the pipe and not on the threads.

You might want to look closely at the end of the pipe on the side that's leaking to make sure it didn't get a few of the threads partially pulled off the pipe. It wouldn't surprise if that happened so look closely at it. If that happened you'll need to remove the broken threads, square it up with a file and thread it back enough to replace the damaged threads. If the pipe threads are damaged, you might not need another fitting so check that first.

If for some reason these fittings won't work for you, I've got a couple of friends that are Fluid Power Engineers that I used to work with and they are located not too far from you in Hudsonville, MI at Michigan Fluid Power. I can contact either of them and probably get you a meeting with them to help you out.

https://shop.hoseandfittings.com/catalo ... 6X6X6.html

https://www.surpluscenter.com/Hydraulic ... -6-6-6.axd

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Re: '63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby phill_mi » Tue Jan 24, 2023 7:22 pm

Thanks for all the advice. I took the part to Bond Fluidair. They did not have anything, but they were helpful in discussing the problem. NAPA had told me that a they could order the part (#G60184-0606 similar to the picture Ricky posted, but I was not sure if the branch would still connect to the hose). The guy at Bond assured me that it would work so I went over to NAPA and ordered it. I had wondered about trying to straighten the pipe and then use the original part. The guy at Bond looked at my old part and suspected that the part was bent and may have a crack. I picked up the new part before I saw Ricky's post. I hope to try to straighten the pipe and assemble it. I like the price in Ricky's second link better than NAPA's, but if I get the tractor running I will be a happy camper. (At the time I found this problem I also found coolant leaking from my '52 TO-30's water pump, so I am waiting for a new pump for that tractor. I would like to have at least one tractor dependable prior to the next blizzard.) Thanks for all the help! Phill

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Re: '63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby ricky racer » Tue Jan 24, 2023 9:13 pm

Phil, inspect the threaded end of the pipe that bent. Often times the threads well tear near the end of the pipe when the pipe gets bent, due to the wall thickness getting thinner as the threads taper down. Check it out before you install the new tee.
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Re: '63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby phill_mi » Wed Jan 25, 2023 10:29 am

I inspected the threads, and they look good all the way around, but I notice a small indentation in the end of the pipe at the top of the circle. It is hard to get a picture of it but it looks like something round (like the vertical portion of the fitting) was pressed against the end of the pipe causing the imprint. I will try to even out the end with a file.
20230125_101310c.jpg

phill_mi
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Re: '63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby phill_mi » Wed Jan 25, 2023 5:49 pm

I filed the above pipe flat, dressing up the dip in the end surface and the curled over thread. I installed the new part but when tightening against the pipe (above) it got harder to tighten and then a lot easer to tighten. It never seemed to get tight and when I powered up the tractor fluid poured out of the joint with the pipe (above). I tried to tighten it more, but as I wipe the fitting dry, oil continues to run out of the threads with the tractor off. I did not notice any leakage on the opposing fitting which also connects to a pipe, or the branch fitting which connects to a hose to the up/down cylinder. I have read that the inside surface of the end of the pipe should have a 30 degree bevel. I am not sure how to produce this. I also don't have a 3/8 pipe threader to chase the pipe's threads but am checking to see if a friend has one I could borrow. On that point I read about differences between NPTF and NSPM threads but I don't know which is used for this pipe. Alternatively I may investigate running a hose in place of the pipe back to the TC controls. It was cold and snowing, so I guess a solution to this problem will have to wait for another day.

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Re: '63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby ricky racer » Wed Jan 25, 2023 6:52 pm

It would be a lot cheaper to replace the pipe with another piece of pipe rather than replacing it with a hose. Obviously there's an issue with the threads on the bent pipe. The pipe is schedule just 40 pipe and should be very easy to replace. You can have the pipe cut and threaded at a good hardware store. They will or should, run a tapered reamer in the end to deburr the pipe and that should be good enough to seal on the fitting.
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Re: '63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby phill_mi » Wed Jan 25, 2023 8:41 pm

Thanks! I will check into it.

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Re: '63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby ricky racer » Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:21 pm

Phil, dressing the inside end of the pipe as I mentioned with the reamer should leave an adequate sealing surface but look it over good when the guy that does the threading hands you the pipe, inspect the reamed chamfer on the ends. If they are rough, ask him to run the reamer on it again and make sure he reamer is lubed and applied with light pressure on the reamer to get a better finish. If it needs cleaned up any, you can always use some emery cloth to smooth out the chamfer. As I said earlier, the pipe will seal on the end of the pipe, not the threads. The drawing below shows how the connection is made

NPSM-thread.jpg
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Re: '63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby SamsFarm » Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:01 am

If you look at the inside of your Tee fitting you will notice a special profile on the smooth part that does not rotate like the threaded part. (See bottom fitting in the attached pic) simular to the pic and more common for our use is a npt swivel, which is more likley what you have. The ends crimped on your hoses probably have the tapered internal seat, have tapered threads and can be used both ways.

I posted that pic, cause it was the quickest example to show the seat, but please dont be confused with the npsm. The S is for "straight" threads. And I doubt any of your threads are straight.

This profile is important to be machined on your pipe, that is where the seal takes place.

Image


Looks like your green steel line has a NPT thread. (See top fitting in the above pic)

The simplest solution would to be to buy a female npt to male npt swivel adapter!

Your original fitting mighta been contract manufactured (proprietary) for the company that built the loader.

If the Ancor company was still in business I would have emailed them (along with a pic of your original fitting), next I would have checked with Parker.

Parker is probably the biggest maker of hydraulic fittings now.

Here is a little something on thread types. ⬇️
https://brennaninc.com/brennan-university-old/fitting-identification-introduction/

Ps;
Your green line is more that likey not the same as black iron pipe found in the hardware store.

Black iron pipe does not have the same pressure specifications as hydraulic tubing.

Stay away from black iron pipe for hydraulic use!
Last edited by SamsFarm on Sat Jan 28, 2023 10:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: '63 F560G with Loader - hydraulic leak

Postby ricky racer » Sat Jan 28, 2023 11:32 am

Sam brings up a good point regarding the pipe. For hydraulic lines the pipe should be seamless, schedule 40 preferably, ASTM A53 Grade B or A106 Grade B Seamless which you should be able to source locally. This pipe is still much cheaper than hose and fittings. Bond Fluidair or any local steel supplier should be able to supply you with the pipe you need.
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