Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

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arlen
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Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby arlen » Tue Apr 06, 2021 12:04 pm

Jim Becker wrote:I've clicked, zoomed, squinted at all four pictures. I suspect the marked tooth next to the double struck tooth was originally the single marked tooth. There really isn't anything else I can add.


I appreciate your help, but that tooth would be impossible for that to be the one. (it is also a double mark, BTW)
I certainly understand if you can't see the pictures clearly and cant see what I'm seeing that all anyone can do is repeat "line the single mark up on the cam to the single mark up on the crank"
I will go it alone from here and post back when I have answered these questions:

1) when cam/crank are properly aligned, and marks are in mesh, Is #1 at TDC? Compression or exhaust?
2) How many full grooves from the crank key is the crank gear timing mark located?

3) Approximately when should the intake start opening? TDC ish ? or 15ish deg After?

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Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby Super A » Tue Apr 06, 2021 1:50 pm

arlen wrote:
Jim Becker wrote:I've clicked, zoomed, squinted at all four pictures. I suspect the marked tooth next to the double struck tooth was originally the single marked tooth. There really isn't anything else I can add.


I appreciate your help, but that tooth would be impossible for that to be the one. (it is also a double mark, BTW)
I certainly understand if you can't see the pictures clearly and cant see what I'm seeing that all anyone can do is repeat "line the single mark up on the cam to the single mark up on the crank"
I will go it alone from here and post back when I have answered these questions:

1) when cam/crank are properly aligned, and marks are in mesh, Is #1 at TDC? Compression or exhaust?
2) How many full grooves from the crank key is the crank gear timing mark located?

3) Approximately when should the intake start opening? TDC ish ? or 15ish deg After?



The IH service manual states which marks to line up with which. I can't put my hands on my copy right now, but it's in there.

Al
White Demo Super A Restoration Updates

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Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby SamsFarm » Tue Apr 06, 2021 10:45 pm

arlen wrote:I certainly understand if you can't see the pictures clearly and cant see what I'm seeing


Arien,

If anyone clicks on your posted pic, it opens up only that pic and is really clear!

I dont know if you know that or not!

It works that way on craigslist too!

Good luck
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Fast Hitch CS Bell 60 Grain Mill
Home Made Fast Hitch Potato Plow
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Couple 1948 Cubs
172 Runner Planter
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Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby SamsFarm » Tue Apr 06, 2021 11:03 pm

Super A wrote:The IH service manual states which marks to line up with which. I can't put my hands on my copy right now, but it's in there.

Al


There is a copy in the pdf manual section under the super A, etc etc etc.

But it dont say much other than line up this dot with that dot, and line up these two dots with those two dots! :(
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Fast Hitch CS Bell 60 Grain Mill
Home Made Fast Hitch Potato Plow
54A Blade

Couple 1948 Cubs
172 Runner Planter
53 Fertilizer
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Mechanical Transplanter with side mount barrel (needs a fast hitch adapter) :)

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Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby SamsFarm » Wed Apr 07, 2021 12:20 am

Question 1) Did you have the cam gear removed from the camshaft at any time?

If yes go to question 2, if no, disregard question 2!

Question 2) Is there punch marks on the other side of the cam gear?
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Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby arlen » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:38 am

SamsFarm wrote:
arlen wrote:I certainly understand if you can't see the pictures clearly and cant see what I'm seeing


Arien,

If anyone clicks on your posted pic, it opens up only that pic and is really clear!

I dont know if you know that or not!

It works that way on craigslist too!

Good luck


Yes, I knew that, and thanks for posting that because maybe some of the other guys don’t know it!

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Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby arlen » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:56 am

SamsFarm wrote:
Super A wrote:The IH service manual states which marks to line up with which. I can't put my hands on my copy right now, but it's in there.

Al


There is a copy in the pdf manual section under the super A, etc etc etc.

But it dont say much other than line up this dot with that dot, and line up these two dots with those two dots! :(


The only useful thing that I got out of the pdf regarding valve timing is that they say the intake should start opening at 15 deg after TDC, which was very helpful and lines up with the IH-8 manual paragraph 56 where they go over how to verify valve timing when the head and engine is installed on the tractor. They say when the intake lifter clearance is taken up, the fly wheel DC 1-4 mark should be 4 teeth past the pointer on the lower flywheel cover.
The ring gear is 90 teeth so that should equate to 16 deg after TDC.
There are many people telling me (not on this forum) that the intake should start opening at TDC, but I know now that’s not right.
The way I have the gears in my very last pic, seems to meet all of the criteria, but that assumes that the crank gear mark is off tooth.
The intake starts opening when the piston is about a 1/4 “ down, 1 tooth over it starts opening right at TDC, so I think it’s where it has to be in the pic.
I’m taking my original crank/ pulley/front cover to the machinist today, and he will get my original gear off, so I can prove/disprove my theory.

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Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby arlen » Wed Apr 07, 2021 5:57 am

SamsFarm wrote:Question 1) Did you have the cam gear removed from the camshaft at any time?

If yes go to question 2, if no, disregard question 2!

Question 2) Is there punch marks on the other side of the cam gear?


I didn’t but that doesn’t mean some other clown didn’t :D
I will pull it out and look.

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Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby Rick Spivey » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:40 am

tst wrote:TDC is when #1 piston at the top of the block, the exhaust valve is closing and the intake starting to open, many times the key on the crank will be at 12 oclock spot also for TDC



Not to confuse anything, but I take issue with this definition. TDC is on the compression stroke, when the engine is ready to ignite the fuel charge. So the intake vale would have closed at the start of the compression stroke, we fire at TDC (or close to it, don't want to get into details of timing), the piston retracts, and then exhausts the burnt fuel. So at TDC the intake valve would have closed last, and the exhaust valve will open next.
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Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby Super A » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:50 am

SamsFarm wrote:
Super A wrote:The IH service manual states which marks to line up with which. I can't put my hands on my copy right now, but it's in there.

Al


There is a copy in the pdf manual section under the super A, etc etc etc.

But it dont say much other than line up this dot with that dot, and line up these two dots with those two dots! :(


Bottom of page 13, "Timing Gears."

I think you need to closely examine the gears. When I did my Super A I really had to look closely to find those double punch marks. We have one scattered all over the shop at school now and I'm expecting a similar struggle......

My only other advice I can give is don't assume the hoof beats you hear are from zebras. In other words, don't over-think it.

Al
White Demo Super A Restoration Updates

Let us pray for farmers and all who prepare the soil for planting, that the seeds they sow may lead to a bountiful harvest.
"It ain't a !@*% A. It's a SUPER A!"

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Super A
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Posts: 5047
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Tractors Owned: 1949 Cub "The Paperweight"
Cub powered IH 52R combine
Grandfather's 1948 Super A
White demo Super A-"Ol Whitey"
1950 Super A "Old Ugly"
1954 Super A-1
856
Buncha other junk
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: NC, Jacksonville area

Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby Super A » Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:57 am

arlen wrote:
SamsFarm wrote:
Super A wrote:The IH service manual states which marks to line up with which. I can't put my hands on my copy right now, but it's in there.

Al


There is a copy in the pdf manual section under the super A, etc etc etc.

But it dont say much other than line up this dot with that dot, and line up these two dots with those two dots! :(


The only useful thing that I got out of the pdf regarding valve timing is that they say the intake should start opening at 15 deg after TDC, which was very helpful and lines up with the IH-8 manual paragraph 56 where they go over how to verify valve timing when the head and engine is installed on the tractor. They say when the intake lifter clearance is taken up, the fly wheel DC 1-4 mark should be 4 teeth past the pointer on the lower flywheel cover.
The ring gear is 90 teeth so that should equate to 16 deg after TDC.
There are many people telling me (not on this forum) that the intake should start opening at TDC, but I know now that’s not right.
The way I have the gears in my very last pic, seems to meet all of the criteria, but that assumes that the crank gear mark is off tooth.
The intake starts opening when the piston is about a 1/4 “ down, 1 tooth over it starts opening right at TDC, so I think it’s where it has to be in the pic.
I’m taking my original crank/ pulley/front cover to the machinist today, and he will get my original gear off, so I can prove/disprove my theory.


We have an A apart in the shop now so my students can do a block swap. Just for giggles I went and looked, and the part number stamped on the cam gear is facing outward like yours. I don't think your gear has ever been off the cam shaft. As I said I think you just have to look really hard to find the punch marks.

Al
White Demo Super A Restoration Updates

Let us pray for farmers and all who prepare the soil for planting, that the seeds they sow may lead to a bountiful harvest.
"It ain't a !@*% A. It's a SUPER A!"

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Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby arlen » Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:07 am

Super A wrote:Bottom of page 13, "Timing Gears."

I think you need to closely examine the gears. When I did my Super A I really had to look closely to find those double punch marks. We have one scattered all over the shop at school now and I'm expecting a similar struggle......

My only other advice I can give is don't assume the hoof beats you hear are from zebras. In other words, don't over-think it.

Al


I know the single mark has to go to the single mark on the crank.
I'm starting to realize that in my efforts to include as much detail in my posts as possible has failed in that they have been wordy to the point that people obviously are not reading them :lol:
I have 2 sets of double marks, and 1 home made single mark that is obviously wrong.
As far as over thinking it, are you saying that the cam timing is not overly critical?
You said you have one laying around at the school, maybe you could tell me how many full grooves counter clockwise is the mark on the crank gear, and while your at it where is the single mark on the cam gear in relation to the key. It would be a good exercise for the students :lol:
Last edited by arlen on Wed Apr 07, 2021 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby arlen » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:22 am

Super A wrote:
arlen wrote:
SamsFarm wrote:
There is a copy in the pdf manual section under the super A, etc etc etc.

But it dont say much other than line up this dot with that dot, and line up these two dots with those two dots! :(


The only useful thing that I got out of the pdf regarding valve timing is that they say the intake should start opening at 15 deg after TDC, which was very helpful and lines up with the IH-8 manual paragraph 56 where they go over how to verify valve timing when the head and engine is installed on the tractor. They say when the intake lifter clearance is taken up, the fly wheel DC 1-4 mark should be 4 teeth past the pointer on the lower flywheel cover.
The ring gear is 90 teeth so that should equate to 16 deg after TDC.
There are many people telling me (not on this forum) that the intake should start opening at TDC, but I know now that’s not right.
The way I have the gears in my very last pic, seems to meet all of the criteria, but that assumes that the crank gear mark is off tooth.
The intake starts opening when the piston is about a 1/4 “ down, 1 tooth over it starts opening right at TDC, so I think it’s where it has to be in the pic.
I’m taking my original crank/ pulley/front cover to the machinist today, and he will get my original gear off, so I can prove/disprove my theory.


We have an A apart in the shop now so my students can do a block swap. Just for giggles I went and looked, and the part number stamped on the cam gear is facing outward like yours. I don't think your gear has ever been off the cam shaft. As I said I think you just have to look really hard to find the punch marks.

Al


Can you help a brother out and count the teeth on the crank gear

from mark to key? Maybe the cam too? Snap a couple pics too?

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Super A
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Posts: 5047
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:53 am
Zip Code: 28521
Tractors Owned: 1949 Cub "The Paperweight"
Cub powered IH 52R combine
Grandfather's 1948 Super A
White demo Super A-"Ol Whitey"
1950 Super A "Old Ugly"
1954 Super A-1
856
Buncha other junk
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: NC, Jacksonville area

Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby Super A » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:25 am

arlen wrote:
Super A wrote:Bottom of page 13, "Timing Gears."

I think you need to closely examine the gears. When I did my Super A I really had to look closely to find those double punch marks. We have one scattered all over the shop at school now and I'm expecting a similar struggle......

My only other advice I can give is don't assume the hoof beats you hear are from zebras. In other words, don't over-think it.

Al


I know the single mark has to go to the single mark on the crank.
I'm starting to realize that in my efforts to include as much detail in my posts as possible has failed in that they have been wordy to the point that people obviously are not reading them :lol:
I have 2 sets of double marks, and 1 home made single mark that is obviously wrong.
As far as over thinking it, are you saying that the cam timing is not overly critical?
You said you have one laying around at the school, maybe you could tell me how many full grooves counter clockwise is the mark on the crank gear, and while your at it where is the single mark on the cam gear in relation to the key. It would be a good exercise for the students :lol:


I think you answered your own question--excessive details to the point the important points are lost. As I tell the students, re-read the manual. Then, do what it says. I feel like if you examine your gear train closely you'll find the marks.

As soon as they get everything cleaned up we can take a look at the marks and where stuff is positioned if that will help you.

Those are not zebras you hear....

Al
White Demo Super A Restoration Updates

Let us pray for farmers and all who prepare the soil for planting, that the seeds they sow may lead to a bountiful harvest.
"It ain't a !@*% A. It's a SUPER A!"

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Super A
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Posts: 5047
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2004 10:53 am
Zip Code: 28521
Tractors Owned: 1949 Cub "The Paperweight"
Cub powered IH 52R combine
Grandfather's 1948 Super A
White demo Super A-"Ol Whitey"
1950 Super A "Old Ugly"
1954 Super A-1
856
Buncha other junk
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: NC, Jacksonville area

Re: Possible Crank/Cam gear Timing Issue C-113

Postby Super A » Wed Apr 07, 2021 9:46 am

arlen wrote:

Can you help a brother out and count the teeth on the crank gear

from mark to key? Maybe the cam too? Snap a couple pics too?


As it happens I am sitting beside two A/Super A camshafts/gears, because I like to keep stuff like that sitting around.....

This is an early A cam. It took some rubbing with a scotchbrite pad but I found the marks. Yes, someone had put another mark on it sometime in the past which nearly threw me. They are tiny but they are there. I tried showing their location with my thumb and finger, then I marked them with a green highlighter, and then laid a ruler beside them.

If the tooth with two marks at the bottom of the pic is 1, count clockwise 35 teeth and that will be the tooth with the single mark.

cam 1.jpg
cam 2.jpg
cam 3.jpg
cam 4.jpg
cam 5.jpg
White Demo Super A Restoration Updates

Let us pray for farmers and all who prepare the soil for planting, that the seeds they sow may lead to a bountiful harvest.
"It ain't a !@*% A. It's a SUPER A!"


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