Another Farmall H starting issue

Farmall H, HV & Super H, 300 & 350, 1939-1958
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pokitisme
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Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby pokitisme » Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:09 pm

So I have my Farmall H working today. I had my brush hog on I was testing it out for the first time. I was going in reverse I was going in Ford first gear. I was adjusting the throttle up and down so I was trying to use the brush hog and the PTO came off and it fell on the brush hog and spun around while hanging on the brush hog for a few seconds due to the momentum of the blade no problem I figured okay I will go down ..hook the PTO backup so I stopped the tractor I left the brush hog in the air. Let me rephrase that I put the tractor in stop I put it in neutral I put the brakes on and lock them in place and then I pushed in the push power button and the tractor stopped... So I got off the tractor I hook the PTO bar to the PTO shaft again. I jumped on the tractor pulled the push pull power button and try to press the starter nothing happened. I went out to the local Tractor Supply Company and bought a new starter push button starter. I installed that and still nothing happening. I do not know how to use voltage meter is very well but I did check continuiti on all of those items and there was that. Also checked positive to positive and negative to negative on the push button starter and I was reading a voltage or DC voltage off of that which equals up to my battery..... So here's the issue tractor was running fine turned it off pulled the power button to turn it on press the starter or the push start button and nothing happened. So what is the issue LOL. By the way I have not had any starting issues since I started on this form. the tractor has been absolutely completely reliable... I will also add that the starter made no clicking sounds and no operational movement. I could not see the inside of the starter but there was no power sound from the starter. That is the starter which is connected directly to the engine block.
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Jim in SC
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Re: Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby Jim in SC » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:10 am

Hmmm. 6 volt or 12volt? Coil or magneto? I'm thinking some problem in that area. Almost sounds like a wire came loose somewhere. I'd check to see if there are loose wires around the coil or magneto, whichever it is you have, and also inside or near the dash box, where you were messing with the ignition switch (what you called the "push pull starter button"). One other very simple thing to check is the fuse. On my H it is behind a small removable screw cap above the ignition switch. You may also have a fuse inside the dash box on the light switch.
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Re: Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby Urbish » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:14 am

Lorisfarmer wrote:Hmmm. 6 volt or 12volt? Coil or magneto?


I believe he has 12V distributor from this post back in October. http://farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=176&t=98437&p=775233#p775233
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Re: Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby Rick Spivey » Wed Mar 14, 2018 7:25 am

Since "nothing happened" when you push the starter button, we need to focus on the battery circuit. I propose that maybe you had just enough juice in the battery to make it run, but not enough amperage to crank it over. That would point to a charging system fault. You may want to start by testing to see if you have a full 12 volts in the battery. I might try jumping it off another good battery, then checking to see if the alternator is putting out the proper voltage (13.7 - 14.3).
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Re: Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby pokitisme » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:09 am

All very very good ideas from you folks LOL. Yes it is 12 volt yes it is coil. It has a brand new coil which I bought about 3 months ago. It has a brand new push button starter switch I bought yesterday. Since this doesn't have much of an electrical system to it and I am a novice at that I suspect I can eventually find out what's wrong. I plan on taking the starter motor off today and trying to do a start off of the battery. Now as to the battery charge level that could be a problem but I've never seen it happen where the motor didn't turn or anything like that when I mean is I never seen it where the starter motor would not try and do something. It could be that the battery was not fully charged but I left it on the charger all night and just tried it this morning the charger said full but that is always no indication to battery level. And my circuit tester is on the fritz LOL it's giving me a continuous continuous signal without even being touched to anything so I need to change the batteries on that lol. As to the fuse I do have a fuse which connects to the dimmer switch. I did look at the schematics this morning for the 6 volt system from a Farmall book that I have and it says that there is a regulator but on my tractor there is no regulator. The regulator has F&L terminals. As denoted by the instruction manual. but I did go out and check and I could find no semblance of a regulator at all I do have a resistor on this as well yes lots of the wires are loose I have tried jiggling and jingling a variety of wires. I am pretty sure it is the electrical system. As far as I can tell from my experience the engine is not locked up because I can rotate the fan blade and the main engine pulley. Again excuse my ignorance I can't rotate it all the way but I rotated enough to where I can hear it working inside. I am not experienced in testing starters either I just watched a YouTube video on it. So I am going to try and give that a try later..... They did mention a solenoid on car starters I am not sure if that is what is on here. Also what settings would I use on a circuit tester to check the amperage I guess that's what you said it was from the alternator. And should I have this testing process of the circuits in operation with the starter button in the on position or the ignition button as you guys called it. With the ignition off there should be no type of connection or power going to anything. Also do I need to press the starter button and hold that in to complete the circuit...............


Well I took your guy's advice on wiggling the wires LOL so I wiggled the top wire on the push pull ignition switch and got it to attempt to start. So I'm guessing that's what the problem is I am now looking for a viable switch out of that switch at my local Tractor Supply or something. Funny is I found the actual switch on walmart.com for 10 bucks LOL but as I'm really anxious to get this thing started I'll probably go to Tractor Supply and get something there as their return policy on stuff is absolutely amazing. I mean I can install the stuff and if I burn it out I can still return it LOL. So I will keep you guys updated on what I find........

Well another update. Went to Tractor Supply bought a new ignition switch that did nothing. I bought a circuit tester. I tested the push button start it showed no power when not pushed and it showed power when pushed. There is power getting to the starter through the battery cable there is power at all of the appropriate circuits in the amperage box. But I found one interesting thing the bottom connection on the resistor does not show any power but the top connection does can a resistor go bad.
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Re: Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby Phillip W. Lenke » Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:52 pm

Don’t know if you got it figured
Had a similar problem
Solder on the starter broke loose behind the connection
Got to be careful tightening them they are only copper and they will spin inside the windings
Hope this helps
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Re: Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby pokitisme » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:03 pm

Phillip W. Lenke wrote:Don’t know if you got it figured
Had a similar problem
Solder on the starter broke loose behind the connection
Got to be careful tightening them they are only copper and they will spin inside the windings
Hope this helps



Well LOL I was waiting for somebody else to post because I didn't want to keep expanding on my own post LOL. So here's what I have determined with the 12 volt tester I have power leading all the way up to the starter. I took the starter out.. I reattached the positive wire to the starter wow leaving it setting out and I tried to press the power button and nothing happened. I believe the starter is messed up in some fashion the starter teeth on the end do move freely from front to back. But now I am looking into possibly getting another starter. I'm guessing this is a 6 volt starter that's the determination I have been making due to no solenoid being attached to it. So my curiosity now goes to what part number or finding a part number for this starter. And where I might possibly get one. I thought I could get one from Steiner tractor parts but it appears they only sell parts not. Others. I'm also looking into some local places that might rebuild a starter but I'm thinking rebuilding it would cost as much as a new one and I'm pretty sure I can find a new one somewhere. If YouTube had not screwed me over because of my conservative viewpoint I would probably make a whole nother video about this which I might at some point.
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Re: Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby Urbish » Wed Mar 14, 2018 8:27 pm

Here's one for $169.95 + shipping. Not sure if that is at all helpful.
https://www.nationsstarteralternator.com/Farmall-Tractor-Starter-4132-BN-p/4132bn.htm

There are 'new' (rebuilt?) starters on ebay for even less.

These starters do not have a solenoid as they used a bendix drive mechanism. Basically the starter gear is thrown forward into engagement with the ring gear on the flywheel by a helical spline on the shaft. Once the engine starts, the gear is thrown off the flywheel by spring tension and the 'kick' of the flywheel ring gear.

Take your starter switch out of play by connecting jumper cables to a known good battery (whether on the tractor or in your car), connect the negative to the mounting ear of the starter, and tap the positive against the battery cable post. (This can all be done with it still on the tractor). If the starter spins at high speed when connected to 12V, but the gear does not kick forward, you either need to lubricate it or replace/rebuild the bendix. It's quite easy to do and the parts for the bendix drive are widely available (Steiner has it).

Jim
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Re: Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby Rick Spivey » Wed Mar 14, 2018 9:14 pm

pokitisme wrote: I reattached the positive wire to the starter wow leaving it setting out and I tried to press the power button and nothing happened.


So if you had no negative connection to the starter, then nothing would happen. The starter has to be attached to either the tractor, or the negative post on the battery, in order to complete the circuit.
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Re: Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby pokitisme » Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:24 am

Rick Spivey wrote:
pokitisme wrote: I reattached the positive wire to the starter wow leaving it setting out and I tried to press the power button and nothing happened.


So if you had no negative connection to the starter, then nothing would happen. The starter has to be attached to either the tractor, or the negative post on the battery, in order to complete the circuit.


Lol.... Yeah I boo booed on that stuff on the tractor silly me LOL I did take it to another battery and try that but I believe that battery was almost dead so I'm charging it up right now I will have more information tomorrow. The battery on using is showing a full charge and it's showing the volts at about 13.63 or so. well into the 13 Point range.. of course having dealt with batteries before I know that as soon as you try to hit the ignition it might drop to 6 volts. Or even less but again you guys are giving me great advice and a lot of help here and pointing me in directions I had not considered. Yes it might be common knowledge for you but for me I'm somewhat ignorant on the mechanics part now you start talking to me about computers and I'll blow you away LOL. Anyway I will keep updates coming here and I think the other kind fellow for the link....


Well editing this and adding to it. I check the starter originally to Anna Riley Automotive which was a waste of time since they refused to test it due to it not being in their parts catalog. So I went down the street to Advance Auto. The guy did test it using the lowest settings and boy that thing ran like crazy. Everybody was quite shocked with it since it was apparently so huge. I then took it out to my Ford Taurus which has only like a 2-year old battery in it and did the same test and it ran as well. I then took it to my Lincoln Town Car which has a screwed-up battery and it ran off of that. Now you will have to forgive me but I don't remember the thing or the gears extending outward as if they were trying to engage from what I remember the thing actually spun in reverse. But I will have to check that visually later. As to the lubrication idea I originally was going to spray brake cleaner all over it but after a second thought I figured that that would clean things up a little bit too much. So for lubrication what should I use. Can I use gear lubricant 80 to 90 weight I'm not talking about soaking the thing I'm talking about just giving you a little Spritz on some of the exposed gears or something. And that is another question is lubricating the teeth on the gear is that a bad choice since that is designed to make contact with the flywheel. In other words we don't want no slippery connections there...


Well here is another edit. So I got home from work and I hook the starter up again. With the cone shape facing me by the way that cone-shaped would be the part that goes into the tractor. With that cone shaped facing me with the exposed years when I hooked up the starter it's spun to the left. Now if I spin it to the right by hand the gear extends outward towards where the flywheel would be if I spin it to the left the gear stays in Word and it just rotates continuously. So I hooked it up to the battery and it's fun to the left the gear did not extend outward because it did not spend right. I have the negative prong of the jumper cable attach to the metal housing where one of the bolts would go into the tractor to support it and hold it to the Tractor the one exposed Bolt that is the positive connection is where I hook up the positive cable with that connection it spins to the left and only to the left. Am I doing something wrong because everything I am hearing says that it should spin to the right to engage the teeth on the gear to engage the flywheel.
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Re: Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby pokitisme » Mon Mar 19, 2018 12:18 am

Well I figured I would adhere that I took the starter to a local guy to get it fixed it seems like one of the points was bad on it here e welded it or did whatever it was he needed to do to fix it the starter seems to work fine now but can't get the stupid tractor started perhaps it's the rain I don't know what the issue is but I'll wait for a few days more than likely it's a screwed-up battery due to the Rain.
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Re: Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby Urbish » Mon Mar 19, 2018 6:30 am

Glad to hear you got your starter straightened out. Rain should not affect your battery at all. What is it doing when you hit the switch? If the engine turning?
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Re: Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby pokitisme » Tue Mar 20, 2018 3:56 pm

Urbish wrote:Glad to hear you got your starter straightened out. Rain should not affect your battery at all. What is it doing when you hit the switch? If the engine turning?



Well I put a voltage meter on it and what's happening is it will be listed at about 13 Volts for the battery when I try to kick the starter over it drops to about 9. Now I cannot remember if that is normal operating range but it just cranks and cranks the starter turns and turns it sounds like it's trying to start but nothing happens. Lol again this is what I get for buying an $800 tractor LOL. But everything seems to be operational other than it's just not kicking it over hard enough to start it. The starter is engaging you can hear the starter operations going you can see the fan and all the belts turning so it's not locked up or anything. I think I might go out and do a compression test on it just for a goof. I do not remember what the actual cranking volts should be. I thought it was at least 9 volts to give it enough kick to crank. And that's where I'm confused at is the starter is turning over..... Is there an incorrect way to install the starter after it's removed because according to the handbook or field manual or whatever it was I read you basically take the two bolts securing it to the engine block off. You pull the starter out and then to reinstall it you put the starter back in and secure the two bolts. And of course add the positive wire to it.

I did pull all the spark plugs and all spark plugs were excessively dirty. I cleaned them off the best I could with my glove hand. And the end of a circuit tester cuz that's all I had available. I reinstalled the spark plugs but that did no good. I did not check for spark as I was too far away from the starter button. Now the only thing that I have actually changed about the tractor is the ignition button and the push button starter the ignition button which is the push pull ignition is listed as 6 to 26 volts if I remember correctly and 75 amps. I think that should be good enough to handle that. And the push button starter is also brand new. Both from Tractor Supply Company. what I plan on doing today is having somebody push the start button while I hold the spark plug wires and test for spark. All of the other operation seem to be working fine so it has to be either a gas issue or a spark issue.... Unless the battery is not putting out enough volts.. But from my experience If it gets the starter turning then that right there is enough to possibly start things.



My tractor has a resistor on it it has a top connection and a bottom connection. The top connection reads power going to it with a 12 volt tester. But when I try touching the bottom connection I get no power reading at all. I also get no power reading from the bottom connection to the coil and I get no power reading from the coil to the distributor. Also the coil wire has no spark and each spark plug wire has no spark.
Last edited by pokitisme on Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Urbish
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Re: Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby Urbish » Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:05 am

pokitisme wrote:what I plan on doing today is having somebody push the start button while I hold the spark plug wires and test for spark. All of the other operation seem to be working fine so it has to be either a gas issue or a spark issue.... Unless the battery is not putting out enough volts.. But from my experience If it gets the starter turning then that right there is enough to possibly start things.


You are on the right track. There's no magic about installing or hooking up a starter. If you are getting fuel, and don't think you're getting spark, check your ignition switch circuit before digging into the points. Spark is easiest to check with an inline tester which can be bought cheaply. Otherwise you can pull one spark plug, stick the plug wire back on it, and hold the body of the spark plug against a clean part of the engine, and crank her over. Make sure you're using a known good plug to test with.
Jim

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Re: Another Farmall H starting issue

Postby pokitisme » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:03 pm

Urbish wrote:
pokitisme wrote:what I plan on doing today is having somebody push the start button while I hold the spark plug wires and test for spark. All of the other operation seem to be working fine so it has to be either a gas issue or a spark issue.... Unless the battery is not putting out enough volts.. But from my experience If it gets the starter turning then that right there is enough to possibly start things.


You are on the right track. There's no magic about installing or hooking up a starter. If you are getting fuel, and don't think you're getting spark, check your ignition switch circuit before digging into the points. Spark is easiest to check with an inline tester which can be bought cheaply. Otherwise you can pull one spark plug, stick the plug wire back on it, and hold the body of the spark plug against a clean part of the engine, and crank her over. Make sure you're using a known good plug to test with.




Well finally got it started found out what the issue was I had trace the power all the way back to the top prong on the resistor but there was no continuiti and no power at the bottom prom well I called up a napper where I got my engine coil from and they have Farmall Parts very strange there in the city. But I called them up and ask them how much a resistor was and if a resistor could go bad. Well they said a resistor can go bad and that a resistor was only about 8 bucks. Sorry figured what the hell might as well get it. Well I got the old resistor off and it was an older sister the back of it was completely open and there was a long metal rod that went through it except it was split into three pieces. Well anyway I checked the continuiti on the new resistor then I hooked up the top prong on the resistor and it received power and I hooked up the bottom prong on the new resistor and it received power. I checked the continuiti from the bottom prong to the coil and that worked out well there was no power to the coil and then I check the coil wire to whatever else it goes to I forgot anyway long story short it was the resistor causing boo boos..


Well as I said I fixed it in morning but later on in the morning I realized I have made another mistake. The push button starter I had tighten the bolts too much on that and it actually loosened all the internals of the starter so I had to go back and return that and get another push button starter after I install that everything work fine. There is a very slight hesitation when starting but that's because I did not tighten down the power cords as much as I should have because of fear of loosening the internals. But I drove it around this morning I use the brush hog and everything work out fine..
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