This site uses cookies to maintain login information on FarmallCub.Com. Click the X in the banner upper right corner to close this notice. For more information on our privacy policy, visit this link:
Privacy Policy

NEW REGISTERED MEMBERS: Be sure to check your SPAM/JUNK folders for the activation email.

Super A or Cub bypass block question

Farmall Super A, AV, 100, 130, & 140 1939 - 1973
Forum rules
Notice: For sale and wanted posts are not allowed in this forum. Please use our free classifieds or one of our site sponsors for your tractor and parts needs.
49willard
Cub Star
Cub Star
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:19 pm
Zip Code: 04079

Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby 49willard » Tue Jan 10, 2023 8:24 pm

I recently purchased a Super A. I am in the process of adding power angling to the snowplow. I installed a bypass block intended for either a Cub or a Super A (it has ports for both in the block as designed). After installing it as recommended (correct orientation of the block) I fired it up with the ports intended for the high pressure and low pressure ports plugged to be plumbed to the new controller not yet plumbed). It blew out one of gaskets adjacent to the block (it became the relief valve). I then looked closer at the bypass block. As built it only has the one high pressure port at the bottom intended to be plumbed through the new single spool controller. The normal high pressure port is blocked off by the the new bypass block. I have to assume that used in a Cub the normal high pressure port would also be blocked. Does that make sense such that the high pressure flow going to the stock original 2 lift cylinders HAS TO go through the new controller? Trying to understand how it is supposed to work. The good news is that the only failure was one gasket and the tractor hydraulics back to stock with the bypass block removed operates as designed!

SPONSOR AD

Sponsor



Sponsor
 

Jim Becker
Team Cub
Team Cub
Posts: 17241
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:59 pm
Zip Code: 55319
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: MN

Re: Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby Jim Becker » Tue Jan 10, 2023 11:55 pm

49willard wrote:. . . I fired it up with the ports intended for the high pressure and low pressure ports plugged to be plumbed to the new controller not yet plumbed). . . .

That was a huge potentially very expensive mistake.
49willard wrote:. . . It blew out one of gaskets adjacent to the block (it became the relief valve). . . .

You just used up about 5 years worth of good luck.
49willard wrote:. . . I have to assume that used in a Cub the normal high pressure port would also be blocked. . . .

It would.
49willard wrote:. . . Does that make sense such that the high pressure flow going to the stock original 2 lift cylinders HAS TO go through the new controller? . . .

Yes.

SamsFarm
501 Club
501 Club
Posts: 1853
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:21 pm
Zip Code: 44410
Tractors Owned: 1968 Cub Fast Hitch
LF-1 Platform Carrier
144 Cultivators
L-F194 Plow(s)
F38 Disk
L-F3 Spring Tooth Harrow
CS Bell No. 60 Grain Mill on a unmodified Fast Hitch Disk hitch prong
Home Made Fast Hitch Potato Plow
54A Blade

Couple 1948 Cubs
172 Runner Planter
53 Fertilizer
Cub-3 Field Cultivator
Cub-189 Two Way Plow
Cub-22 Sickle Bar Mower
Mechanical Transplanter with side mount barrel (needs a fast hitch adapter) :)

Misc Belly Mowers

Wish List
International 100 Fast Hitch Blade
Mott Fast Hitch Flail Mower

Wish Wish Wish List
Fast Hitch Rotary Hoe
4E hammer mill
Location: Ne Ohio

Re: Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby SamsFarm » Wed Jan 11, 2023 12:53 am

Hopefully you did not blow the seal in the hydraulic pump.

You'll know if that blown if the hydraulic fluid goes low with no sign of leaking, and your engine oil goes overfull!

Or maybe that is just on the cub! ???

Your new bypass block diverts all the pressure from the pump to one of the ports you had blocked off

You can take a hose and connect the two ports on the new bypass block together and then is should be safe to run.

Fyi; controller = hydraulic valve.

There is a special valve called a power beyond valve that should be used.

There is quite the write-up on here about the power beyond set-up if you do a search.

A power beyond valve has 5 ports
Pressure in
Pressure out
Return
A port
B port
1968 Cub Fast-Hitch

49willard
Cub Star
Cub Star
Posts: 70
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2019 12:19 pm
Zip Code: 04079

Re: Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby 49willard » Wed Jan 11, 2023 11:31 am

Thanks for the education, I need it! The bypass block was provided with zero instruction and I obviously lacked an understanding of just how the hydraulic systems functions with the bypass installed. I did do a search on the forum for the bypass valve and I did not see any discussion. When I just queried the form for a "power beyond valve" It did not lead me to a write up.
For anyone in the future picking up on this thread, DO NOT DO WHAT I DID.

User avatar
ricky racer
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 6313
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:40 pm
Zip Code: 49120
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Niles / Buchanan, Michigan

Re: Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby ricky racer » Wed Jan 11, 2023 1:08 pm

Bill, you need to realize that any time the engine is running, the hyd. pump is displacing fluid and it needs to go somewhere. If it can't go somewhere, bad things happen. The Bypass block bypasses (blocks flow to) the TC unit and redirects the fluid to your auxiliary valve through plumbing that you need to add in place of the port plugs that you didn't remove. The pressurized fluid passes from your pump to the auxiliary valves "P" port, then from your auxiliary valves "T" port to the bypass block inlet, which allows the fluid to enter the TC unit to complete its circuit. Since you did not plumb it to your auxiliary valve, the pressure had no where to go. As Jim said, you're very lucky if a blown gasket is all you suffered.

Remember, the hydraulic fluid always needs somewhere to go at all times. Also, understand that any auxiliary valve you add must have a relief built into it or when your angle cylinder reaches its limit, either fully extended or fully retracted, you'll have the same dead head issue you just experienced. Contrary to what Samsfarm said, you do not need a power beyond valve, you just need pressure to your auxiliary valve and a return from the auxiliary valve to the inlet of the bypass block.

I'd suggest you go back and re-watch the video I made which explains how the system works.
1929 Farmall Regular
1935 John Deere B
1937 John Deere A
1941 John Deere H
1952 John Deere B
1953 Farmall Cub

Jim Becker
Team Cub
Team Cub
Posts: 17241
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:59 pm
Zip Code: 55319
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: MN

Re: Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby Jim Becker » Wed Jan 11, 2023 5:12 pm

ricky racer wrote:. . . Contrary to what Samsfarm said, you do not need a power beyond valve, you just need pressure to your auxiliary valve and a return from the auxiliary valve to the inlet of the bypass block. . . .

Nope. The flow out of the remote valve has to feed oil under pressure into the Touch-Control unit to provide pressure for the internal valves/cylinders. This is literally the definition of power beyond. As you stated back when you built your system:
ricky racer wrote:For those of you that have asked about the valve I used in this set up, I can give you the following:

The valve was purchased from Bailey Sales Corp. (Baileynet.com) phone # 1-800-800-1810 or 1-865-588-6000. The Bailey part number for the valve is #220-906 described as ( 1 spool valve, 4 way, 3 position, 10 GPM ). Also added to that valve is a part # 220-915 described as (Power beyond plug P40 SAE). The power beyond plug should be added because you are using power beyond that valve at the touch control unit. . . .

Here is a more detailed explanation of power beyond:

User avatar
ricky racer
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 6313
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:40 pm
Zip Code: 49120
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Niles / Buchanan, Michigan

Re: Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby ricky racer » Thu Jan 12, 2023 8:51 am

Jim, you are incorrect. The pressure is supplied to the TC unit directly from the hydraulic pump without any interruption due to the open center auxiliary valve so no power beyond is needed. ONLY if you were to try to operate the power angle AND using the TC to lift your blade at the same time would power beyond be needed. Myself, I've only got two hands and one of them is on the steering wheel while driving my tractor leaving me only one hand to operate a control lever so I can't operate two control levers at once.
My original post, from over 20 years ago, was incorrect regarding the power beyond requirement. There is no need or reason to use a power beyond valve unless you intend to use two different hydraulically driven actuators at the same time which I don't believe anyone pushing snow with a Cub or Super A will likely do.
I suggest you view the video below to get a better understanding of how the system works.

1929 Farmall Regular
1935 John Deere B
1937 John Deere A
1941 John Deere H
1952 John Deere B
1953 Farmall Cub

Jim Becker
Team Cub
Team Cub
Posts: 17241
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:59 pm
Zip Code: 55319
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: MN

Re: Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby Jim Becker » Thu Jan 12, 2023 12:54 pm

You could easily throw the Touch-Control lever to the other end of its range then move the auxiliary valve while the Touch-Control is still in motion. In fact, I strongly suspect you have done exactly that at least once.

How would a relief valve be built into this system without a power beyond valve? Any flow that bypasses through a pressure relief needs to be plumbed straight to the reservoir. If the relief is built into the control valve, it will be to the T port of the valve. If the T port is connected to the bypass block you create a possible over pressure situation. Another way to get in trouble with excessive pressure is if the stops on the Touch-Control lever are out of adjustment. The lever may be able to move too far and the motion of the rockshaft can't bring the valve completely back to neutral. That seems to show up a lot more often than I would expect.

User avatar
ricky racer
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 6313
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:40 pm
Zip Code: 49120
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Niles / Buchanan, Michigan

Re: Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby ricky racer » Thu Jan 12, 2023 1:37 pm

Jim Becker wrote:You could easily throw the Touch-Control lever to the other end of its range then move the auxiliary valve while the Touch-Control is still in motion. In fact, I strongly suspect you have done exactly that at least once.

How would a relief valve be built into this system without a power beyond valve? Any flow that bypasses through a pressure relief needs to be plumbed straight to the reservoir. If the relief is built into the control valve, it will be to the T port of the valve. If the T port is connected to the bypass block you create a possible over pressure situation. I'm not quite sure what you're talking about here.

Another way to get in trouble with excessive pressure is if the stops on the Touch-Control lever are out of adjustment. The lever may be able to move too far and the motion of the rockshaft can't bring the valve completely back to neutral. That seems to show up a lot more often than I would expect. This has nothing to do with an addition of an auxiliary circuit. However the TC unit has a built in pressure relief to take care of this.


Jim, I have never lifted my plow and changed the angle at the same time. Like I said, I've only got two hands, plus it's not plumbed that way. I suppose theoretically it could be done but why? If I were to plumb it up as a power beyond circuit and for some reason decided to operate both actuators at the same time the speed of both would be cut in half since I would be dividing the flow between them. It doesn't make any sense while trying to plow snow. The Cub hydraulic circuit isn't fast to begin with, why would you want to slow it down even more?

The relief circuit is built into the valve body and any discharge from the relief is plumbed internally in the valve body to empty into the T port of the valve. The only time that relief will be in operation is when either the A or B port is restricted (like coming to the end of its stroke) causing an increase in pressure. When flow is directed to the A or B ports, nothing is flowing out of the T port (except for the return fluid exhausted from of the cylinder) unless the relief is being overcome. Any discharge through the relief valve will enter the T port and make its way to the TC reservoir unrestricted. If you don't have a relief built into the auxiliary directional valve or the relief is set too high, when the cylinder comes to the end of its stroke the pressure will immediately build (in a split second) until something fails in the system. I hope this clears thing up.
Last edited by ricky racer on Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1929 Farmall Regular
1935 John Deere B
1937 John Deere A
1941 John Deere H
1952 John Deere B
1953 Farmall Cub

Jim Becker
Team Cub
Team Cub
Posts: 17241
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:59 pm
Zip Code: 55319
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: MN

Re: Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby Jim Becker » Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:03 pm

You need to watch the youtube video I posted earlier.

User avatar
ricky racer
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 6313
Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2007 8:40 pm
Zip Code: 49120
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Niles / Buchanan, Michigan

Re: Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby ricky racer » Thu Jan 12, 2023 2:17 pm

Jim Becker wrote:You need to watch the youtube video I posted earlier.


I understand how a power beyond works, however my Cub nor any I'm aware of are plumbed in a power beyond circuit so the video you posted has no relevance to the conversation we are having regarding the issue that Bill had with his Super A. I have successfully added a power angle circuit to my Cub so I do have a bit of familiarity with the system. I posted a video that I made to explain what is needed to add an auxiliary hydraulic circuit to a Cub and it's very similar to that of a Super A. I'd suggest you watch the video I posted above and try to gain understanding how the system works. No power beyond is needed and all you need is a P and T line supplying your auxiliary valve as I've explained that in the video. My video making skills are not great but I think I explained it pretty well.
1929 Farmall Regular
1935 John Deere B
1937 John Deere A
1941 John Deere H
1952 John Deere B
1953 Farmall Cub

SamsFarm
501 Club
501 Club
Posts: 1853
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:21 pm
Zip Code: 44410
Tractors Owned: 1968 Cub Fast Hitch
LF-1 Platform Carrier
144 Cultivators
L-F194 Plow(s)
F38 Disk
L-F3 Spring Tooth Harrow
CS Bell No. 60 Grain Mill on a unmodified Fast Hitch Disk hitch prong
Home Made Fast Hitch Potato Plow
54A Blade

Couple 1948 Cubs
172 Runner Planter
53 Fertilizer
Cub-3 Field Cultivator
Cub-189 Two Way Plow
Cub-22 Sickle Bar Mower
Mechanical Transplanter with side mount barrel (needs a fast hitch adapter) :)

Misc Belly Mowers

Wish List
International 100 Fast Hitch Blade
Mott Fast Hitch Flail Mower

Wish Wish Wish List
Fast Hitch Rotary Hoe
4E hammer mill
Location: Ne Ohio

Re: Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby SamsFarm » Thu Jan 12, 2023 4:05 pm

We hashed this out back here ⬇️

http://farmallcub.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=109786&sid=7e6207a2c3a2c7074349c4832b9c6d9e

Not all hydraulic valves are manufactured to run pressure through the return port. I posted a manufactures (prince) link in the link ⬆️ showing this.

The tractor in the video ricky posted is done up right with the 3 lines.

Simply stated;
If you use a power beyond valve, there will be no problems.
If you dont use a power beyond valve, you run the (minimal) risk of a leaky valve and having to buy the right valve and replumb your setup!

Link to prince's hydraulic valve schematic ⬇️
http://www.princehyd.com/portals/0/techFAQ/OpenCenterPbDA.pdf
1968 Cub Fast-Hitch

SamsFarm
501 Club
501 Club
Posts: 1853
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:21 pm
Zip Code: 44410
Tractors Owned: 1968 Cub Fast Hitch
LF-1 Platform Carrier
144 Cultivators
L-F194 Plow(s)
F38 Disk
L-F3 Spring Tooth Harrow
CS Bell No. 60 Grain Mill on a unmodified Fast Hitch Disk hitch prong
Home Made Fast Hitch Potato Plow
54A Blade

Couple 1948 Cubs
172 Runner Planter
53 Fertilizer
Cub-3 Field Cultivator
Cub-189 Two Way Plow
Cub-22 Sickle Bar Mower
Mechanical Transplanter with side mount barrel (needs a fast hitch adapter) :)

Misc Belly Mowers

Wish List
International 100 Fast Hitch Blade
Mott Fast Hitch Flail Mower

Wish Wish Wish List
Fast Hitch Rotary Hoe
4E hammer mill
Location: Ne Ohio

Re: Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby SamsFarm » Thu Jan 12, 2023 5:12 pm

There is a factory auxiliary hydraulic valve offered by IH for the Super A, 100, 130, 140 and the Super C, 200, 230.

If you wanted to go that route!
1968 Cub Fast-Hitch

Jim Becker
Team Cub
Team Cub
Posts: 17241
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:59 pm
Zip Code: 55319
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: MN

Re: Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby Jim Becker » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:46 pm


I thought we had too.
Here is one of multiple similar definitions of power beyond that can be found on hydraulic suppliers web sites:
Open center or through center valves need to be connected in series using power beyond porting. Power Beyond allows unused flow to power multiple valve sets downstream.

A Cub using a remote valve for blade angling is a power beyond application. The remote (added) valve is open center. The flow out of that valve goes downstream into the valve inside the Touch-Control unit. This configuration is LITERALLY the definition of power beyond.

I don't know how to explain it other than the several ways I already have, don't have time to go over it again.

SamsFarm
501 Club
501 Club
Posts: 1853
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2021 8:21 pm
Zip Code: 44410
Tractors Owned: 1968 Cub Fast Hitch
LF-1 Platform Carrier
144 Cultivators
L-F194 Plow(s)
F38 Disk
L-F3 Spring Tooth Harrow
CS Bell No. 60 Grain Mill on a unmodified Fast Hitch Disk hitch prong
Home Made Fast Hitch Potato Plow
54A Blade

Couple 1948 Cubs
172 Runner Planter
53 Fertilizer
Cub-3 Field Cultivator
Cub-189 Two Way Plow
Cub-22 Sickle Bar Mower
Mechanical Transplanter with side mount barrel (needs a fast hitch adapter) :)

Misc Belly Mowers

Wish List
International 100 Fast Hitch Blade
Mott Fast Hitch Flail Mower

Wish Wish Wish List
Fast Hitch Rotary Hoe
4E hammer mill
Location: Ne Ohio

Re: Super A or Cub bypass block question

Postby SamsFarm » Thu Jan 12, 2023 10:51 pm

Jim Becker wrote:A Cub using a remote valve for blade angling is a power beyond application. The remote (added) valve is open center. The flow out of that valve goes downstream into the valve inside the Touch-Control unit. This configuration is LITERALLY the definition of power beyond.

I don't know how to explain it other than the several ways I already have, don't have time to go over it again.


Yes Sir, and the schematic from the Prince link backs that up!
1968 Cub Fast-Hitch


Return to “Farmall A, Super A, AV, 100, 130 & 140”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests