Time for TLC on Workhorse

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k hutchins
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Zip Code: 48843
Tractors Owned: 1948 Farmall Cub
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1948 snow/grading blade
Woods 59 C3
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Cub 22 mower
Cub 172 one row planter
Original manuals for all the above
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby k hutchins » Mon Nov 23, 2020 1:20 pm

Hey Glen and anyone else that can help.
So l did the plastigauge on the 3 crankshaft legends, and all 3 showed .005. According to the service guide info they should read .002-.003. So obvjously l have too much clearance between the shaft and the bearings.
My question is, what now? Do l just replace with new std bearings, or try to find other sized bearings?
If new thicker bearings, what size do l look for?

Not a mechanic
Thanks
Hutch
Why is there never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time to do it over. :?:

k hutchins
10+ Years
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Posts: 631
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:48 pm
Zip Code: 48843
Tractors Owned: 1948 Farmall Cub
193 plow
1948 snow/grading blade
Woods 59 C3
Cub 144 cultivator
Cub 22 mower
Cub 172 one row planter
Original manuals for all the above
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby k hutchins » Mon Nov 23, 2020 4:27 pm

Ooops :help:

Well heavy handed me. While waiting for replies from my previous post, l decided to plastigauge one of the piston arm bearings. Unfortunately things didn't go well and l broke one of the locking nuts at the bottom of the piston arm.
I went to a local hardware and the only thing they had as a modern equivalent was a C type locking nut.
Would this be acceptable in this application or do l need to find originals from someone's parts/salvage tractor? Having said that. Who has a set or two that they'd be willing to ship to me on the faith l'll mail them a check to cover price and shipping?

:help:
Why is there never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time to do it over. :?:

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Glen
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Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Glen » Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:34 pm

Hi,
I answered most of your questions in a PM.

The Cub parts manual shows that the engine just has nuts on the connecting rod caps. There is no separate lock nut shown, just 2 nuts on each cap.
I don't know what the C lock nut you said is.
I think they have said on here before to use a regular nut for those, the nuts with the slits don't lock, I think they don't bind on the bolts.
Someone say if that sounds right.

Or you can buy one from Case IH, if they have the style of the originals.

The connecting rod cap nuts are only tightened to 16 ft lbs, the manual says.

In your pic of the crankshaft, I can see one of the connecting rod cap nuts, it looks like the same as the manual pic has.

Below is a page from the Cub parts manual showing the nuts.

http://www.farmallcub.info/manuals/cub_ ... 012-04.jpg

The engine looks clean from the amount of it I can see in your pic. I don't know if you cleaned it or not. :)

Eugene
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Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Eugene » Mon Nov 23, 2020 9:07 pm

Previous photos.
#2. Has some serious scratches in the insert. Check the corresponding journal for scratches.
#3. The insert is STD = standard.

k hutchins wrote:l did the plastigauge on the 3 crankshaft legends, and all 3 showed .005. According to the service guide info they should read .002-.003. So obvjously l have too much clearance between the shaft and the bearings.
My question is, what now? Do l just replace with new std bearings, or try to find other sized bearings?
If new thicker bearings, what size do l look for?
Wipe all the oil from the bearings and crank journal. Then try the different sizes of plastigage.

Read the bearing insert size from it's back. You need .002 to .003 inch gap between the journal and the bearing insert. Bit of math between the current insert size and the plastigage reading, then the over the counter inserts to get you within specs.

If you can not come up with an oversized bearing insert to meet the specifications- - - suggest taking the engine to a machine shop. They will micrometer the crankshaft and provide recommendations.
I have an excuse. CRS.

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Glen
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Location: Wa.

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Glen » Tue Nov 24, 2020 1:50 am

The bearing on page 2 of this post is scratched like Eugene said, and the crankshaft journal looks scratched lots. It should have a smooth metal look.
I don't know if it's just the pic making it looked scratched or not.

k hutchins
10+ Years
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Posts: 631
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:48 pm
Zip Code: 48843
Tractors Owned: 1948 Farmall Cub
193 plow
1948 snow/grading blade
Woods 59 C3
Cub 144 cultivator
Cub 22 mower
Cub 172 one row planter
Original manuals for all the above
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby k hutchins » Tue Nov 24, 2020 6:27 am

Thank you gentlemen for your responses.

The insert is scratched, but the crank journal is smooth to the touch. It's a bit discolored as all of the journals are from where the bearing insert touches, but none have scratches or grooves like in insert.
Eugene, you said simple math would work, but something isn't computing for me.
The shop manual says that when using plastigauge or soft lead, when tightened to 55 ft lbs, the correct spread should be .002-.003. My measurement was .005. That means l would need undersized bearing inserts, but the difference is only half of the .010 undersized insert available.
So going on the assumption that the original insert is worn (apparent from the scratches), new std bearings would bring me closer to specs than a .010 undersized insert.
Maybe l'm over thinking this.
Why is there never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time to do it over. :?:

Gary Dotson
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Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Gary Dotson » Tue Nov 24, 2020 8:36 am

First off, you need to check and measure the rod journals before arriving at any conclusion on the main bearings. You may find that you need to remove the crank and have it turned, anyway. I'm not sure about the c-60 engine but .001 and .002 under size bearings are available for many engines. The down side to trying this is that if the crank is worn, it's no longer round. Then again, the wear may simply be bearing wear. A machine shop would have measuring equipment to determine what you have but the crank would have to be removed. The only way you have, to determine this, is to slip in a set of new, standard bearings and repeat the plastigauge measurement. It's a leap of faith but might just work out.

Eugene
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Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Eugene » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:13 am

Gary Dotson wrote: A machine shop would have measuring equipment to determine what you have but the crank would have to be removed.

I vote for the machine shop. Strip the engine down to the bare block with crankshaft. Have the machine shop measure everything and boil out the block.
I have an excuse. CRS.

k hutchins
10+ Years
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Posts: 631
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:48 pm
Zip Code: 48843
Tractors Owned: 1948 Farmall Cub
193 plow
1948 snow/grading blade
Woods 59 C3
Cub 144 cultivator
Cub 22 mower
Cub 172 one row planter
Original manuals for all the above
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby k hutchins » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:16 am

My thoughts exactly Gary.
By the way, the rod journals showed that they were within tollerence, but l may have to repeat that test as l may have over tightened the bearing cap when l did the test.
Why is there never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time to do it over. :?:

k hutchins
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 631
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:48 pm
Zip Code: 48843
Tractors Owned: 1948 Farmall Cub
193 plow
1948 snow/grading blade
Woods 59 C3
Cub 144 cultivator
Cub 22 mower
Cub 172 one row planter
Original manuals for all the above
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby k hutchins » Tue Nov 24, 2020 10:45 am

Hey all

I started this project because l had a major oil leak. So l had to split the tractor to get to the rear seal, and discovered that it didn't seem to be the problem. I discovered that the oil pan without a gasket (only silicone forma gasket) was the main issue. Since l had it off l sent the rear seal off to Tim any way for an upgrade just in case.
I figured while l'm waiting for that return, l'd check for any other major problems. Hence the plastigauge check. What l found is that this 72 yr old tractor that has never been rebuilt isn't in that bad of shape.
The main journals/bearings are only .002 out of specs.
My compression is 150 on 3 out of 4 cylinders with the third within 15% at 135 (wet test).
It starts and runs better now (well before l took it apart) than it did 30-40 yrs ago.

The first rule in medicine is "do no harm", and l'm a firm believer in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". So l've decided l'm to replace the STD main bearings (if l can get them), put it back together and keep my fingers crossed.
I've got new gaskets, hoses, and will make a new wire harness. Along with cleaning up and dbl checking the valve adjustments, then call it good enough, hoping l didn't mess anything up too bad with my inept attempts when l forgot my golden rule.

Thanks again for any and all input
Why is there never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time to do it over. :?:

Gary Dotson
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
Posts: 4983
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:20 am
Zip Code: 43358
Tractors Owned: 48 Cub Diesel (Cubota)
53 Cockshutt 20 restored (Shooter)
52 Cockshutt 20 unrestored
47 Leader "B" (Herckie)
49 Leader "D" (Princess)
49 Leader "D" very rough
48 Leader "D" unrestored
Kubota B6200E
Kubota B6200HST
Kubota B8200HST-D
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: OH West Mansfield

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Gary Dotson » Wed Nov 25, 2020 8:42 am

I think the new, standard bearings will help a little. It may not quite get you in spec. but it will be close. Plastigauge them and let us know how it works out.

k hutchins
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 631
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:48 pm
Zip Code: 48843
Tractors Owned: 1948 Farmall Cub
193 plow
1948 snow/grading blade
Woods 59 C3
Cub 144 cultivator
Cub 22 mower
Cub 172 one row planter
Original manuals for all the above
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby k hutchins » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:17 pm

Gary
I'll keep y'all up dated on progress with pics.
I'm replacing all bearings with new std bearings, journals and rods. I'll redo plastgauge just to see if there's a difference. If nothing else we'll know if it's the bearings that ware or the crank.
After that, l'll start reassembly and keep fingers crossed that l didn't mess up a great running, working tractor that had an oil leak.

Stay tuned
Why is there never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time to do it over. :?:

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ricky racer
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Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby ricky racer » Wed Nov 25, 2020 2:52 pm

k hutchins wrote:Hey all

I started this project because l had a major oil leak. So l had to split the tractor to get to the rear seal, and discovered that it didn't seem to be the problem. I discovered that the oil pan without a gasket (only silicone forma gasket) was the main issue. Since l had it off l sent the rear seal off to Tim any way for an upgrade just in case.
I figured while l'm waiting for that return, l'd check for any other major problems. Hence the plastigauge check. What l found is that this 72 yr old tractor that has never been rebuilt isn't in that bad of shape.
The main journals/bearings are only .002 out of specs.
My compression is 150 on 3 out of 4 cylinders with the third within 15% at 135 (wet test).
It starts and runs better now (well before l took it apart) than it did 30-40 yrs ago.

The first rule in medicine is "do no harm", and l'm a firm believer in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". So l've decided l'm to replace the STD main bearings (if l can get them), put it back together and keep my fingers crossed.
I've got new gaskets, hoses, and will make a new wire harness. Along with cleaning up and dbl checking the valve adjustments, then call it good enough, hoping l didn't mess anything up too bad with my inept attempts when l forgot my golden rule.

Thanks again for any and all input


I agree with the course of action you're taking. That would never fly at any reputable garage but since it's yours and this keeps everything within your original scope of work, I think you're on the right track. Keep us posted on what you find. If you need a rod nut or bolt, I've probably got one I could send you. Let me know.
1929 Farmall Regular
1935 John Deere B
1937 John Deere A
1941 John Deere H
1952 John Deere B
1953 Farmall Cub

k hutchins
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 631
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:48 pm
Zip Code: 48843
Tractors Owned: 1948 Farmall Cub
193 plow
1948 snow/grading blade
Woods 59 C3
Cub 144 cultivator
Cub 22 mower
Cub 172 one row planter
Original manuals for all the above
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby k hutchins » Wed Nov 25, 2020 6:47 pm

Thanks Ricky
Bob McCarty is hooking me up with a couple nuts, but l appreciate the offer.

I've dealt with the same garage for doing work on my vehicles for over 30 yrs. The reason? Because they would fix what needed to be fixed, not speculate and run up a bill, just because something might be worn. Unless it was critical, they'd advise me of a condition for future reference, but if it worked and wasn't dangerous, they let me make the call.
That really came in handy at times when l needed reliable transportation, but didn't have 2 extra nickles to rub together.
Common sense and logic go a long way with me.
I've seen people on this forum start what should be a simple project, and the next thing you know they're drowning because they decided to go an extra step that maybe they didn't need to.
Why is there never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time to do it over. :?:

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Glen
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Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Glen » Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:10 pm

k hutchins wrote:The main journals/bearings are only .002 out of specs.
and l'm a firm believer in "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". So l've decided l'm to replace the STD main bearings (if l can get them), put it back together and keep my fingers crossed.

Hi,
The internal clearances in engines are precision things, so to an extent .002 out of specs is broken.
Any more wear than the service manual says, and the bearings or other parts are wornout, and with crankshaft bearings, knocking sounds can and will happen.
After using the engine with knocking sounds for a long enough time, the crankshaft can get flat areas on it, instead of being round.
New bearings when the crankshaft is still good, cost less than a new crankshaft later.


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