Time for TLC on Workhorse

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k hutchins
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Tractors Owned: 1948 Farmall Cub
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Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby k hutchins » Sat Oct 17, 2020 2:24 pm

I'm getting ready to begin my tear down on my original '48 Workhorse.

As l've stated before, l can do mechanical things but l'm not a mechanic.

I'm doing a partial valve job. By that l mean that l'll be be replacing everything except the valves themselves. When l replaced the headgasket last year the valves all looked good, but it's been 40 yrs since they've even been adjusted.
The question l have is why do only the exhaust valves have "retainers"?
Pardon my ignorance, l'll probably know more when l take it apart and can actually see how they go together.

The other reason for the tear down is rebuilding the lowerer end. I know the rear main oil seal is shot, and yes l've been in contact with tst. I figured l might as well replace the front seal as well. Then bearings, both main and rod. Just waiting until l get it pulled apart to mic the crank and see if l need to go oversized or standard.

I know l'll have lots of questions along the way, and everyone is always very helpful.
I'll also post pics along the way if l can get them downsized enough.

Thanks in advance for any in put. Wish me luck, trying to get it done before the snow flies.

Hutch
Why is there never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time to do it over. :?:

Eugene
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Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Eugene » Sat Oct 17, 2020 3:06 pm

k hutchins wrote:The question l have is why do only the exhaust valves have "retainers"?
Rotators on exhaust valves?

Rotators turn the valve a bit each time the valve opens/closes. This helps remove carbon build up and helps maintain a uniform temperature of the valve head, which helps eliminate warpage.
I have an excuse. CRS.

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Glen
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Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Glen » Sat Oct 17, 2020 7:57 pm

k hutchins wrote: The question l have is why do only the exhaust valves have "retainers"?

Hi,
All 8 valves have retainers, at the bottom end of them.

Below is a page from the Cub parts manual showing the valves.
The retainers, or Keys, IH calls them, are number 10 in the pic.

http://www.farmallcub.info/manuals/cub_ ... 012-11.jpg

There are also exhaust valve rotators, like Eugene said above. They were extra cost.

The valve seats in the block can get worn too wide from use over time. When the valves are out, the seats should be inspected and ground to restore the original shape, if needed.
And the valves may need grinding too. Maybe you knew already.
Engine shops have grinding stones to grind the valve seats, but you have to take the engine to them.
Or you can buy stones and do it yourself.
It is better to have some experience when grinding valve seats, it is the engine block, not replaceable seats.

Below is a page from the Cub service manual showing the valve seat shape.

http://www.farmallcub.info/manuals/gss- ... 001-24.jpg

I would read the engine section in the Cub service manual, before working on the engine.
The Cub service manual has lots of info.
It has crankshaft info.
Maybe you have the manual already. :)

k hutchins
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Posts: 631
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:48 pm
Zip Code: 48843
Tractors Owned: 1948 Farmall Cub
193 plow
1948 snow/grading blade
Woods 59 C3
Cub 144 cultivator
Cub 22 mower
Cub 172 one row planter
Original manuals for all the above
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby k hutchins » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:10 am

Thank you guys.

Some of you may be wondering why l would go to the trouble of replacing springs, guides, and retainers without changing valves. I've done a compression test, and even at 72 yrs old l'm getting 110 on 3 out of 4 cylinders. I'm a, if it ain't broke don't fix it, guy. I do plan on lapping the existing valves to insure a good seat once l get any carbon cleaned off, but l may change my mind once l get it apart. I do know springs get weak, guideds wear or get dirty, so those are the reason to do anything, to keep valves running smotth.
Same mentality with pistons. If l've got good compression then why change it out? I can live with a puff of blue smoke now and then. That's why l'm waiting to order bearrings until l get it torn apart. It will depend on the amount of wear l find.

Thanks again guys. Wish l could find my shop manual lol.

I'll keep y'all posted
Why is there never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time to do it over. :?:

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Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby tomstractor » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:50 am

If you replace the valve guides you have to reface the valve seats. The guides align the valves with the seats and replacing them changes the way the valves seat.

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Glen
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Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Glen » Sun Oct 18, 2020 5:50 pm

Hi,
Below is the Cub service manual. It has lots of info.
It is not hard to use online, there is a table of contents beginning on page 1 of each section.
Look at that, and you can find things you need in it.

http://farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.clea ... index.html

The crankshaft info begins on page 1-47.

The oil pressure can depend some on the weight of oil you use too. Thin oil may give low pressure readings.
An oil additive may help to improve the smoking, and compression. Seafoam or Rislone are good. I haven't used the Seafoam, but people on here say it works good.
The piston rings can get stuck over time from sitting, or use.
Combustion is not perfect, it leaves goop on the rings over time. The rings can get stuck. The additive helps free the rings.
Additives take some time to work. I think Don M. said to use an additive for 2 oil change periods.
The Cub operator's manual says to change the oil every 120 or 150 hours, depending on the year of the Cub.
The service manual says a Cub engine has 120 lbs of compression. That is probably for a new engine.
90 lbs or more is good.

You might find that the upper part of the engine needs little repair. The carbon may need cleaning out of the combustion chambers, and the valve stems, and passages. :)
Last edited by Glen on Wed Oct 21, 2020 11:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

k hutchins
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 631
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:48 pm
Zip Code: 48843
Tractors Owned: 1948 Farmall Cub
193 plow
1948 snow/grading blade
Woods 59 C3
Cub 144 cultivator
Cub 22 mower
Cub 172 one row planter
Original manuals for all the above
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby k hutchins » Sun Oct 18, 2020 7:51 pm

Well l spent the day manufacturing, and putting together my splitting support and assembling an engine stand from ikea. Only kidding, neighbor bought it years ago at auction, but it was still in the box.
20201018_195522.jpg
Everything ready for the split

20201018_201204.jpg
4x4 trailer tongue jack and angle iron

20201018_195721.jpg
Angle iron attached with2 1/2" lag bolts two front and one down from top


In case anyone is interested, that's all original paint. He got his first bath in 61 yrs last week. I may repaint the hood, but l think l'll leave the rest as is. He's a working tractor and has earned his patina.
Why is there never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time to do it over. :?:

k hutchins
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 631
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:48 pm
Zip Code: 48843
Tractors Owned: 1948 Farmall Cub
193 plow
1948 snow/grading blade
Woods 59 C3
Cub 144 cultivator
Cub 22 mower
Cub 172 one row planter
Original manuals for all the above
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby k hutchins » Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:02 am

Getting my work area set up to begin disassembly, and have run into a few snags.

I actually have 2 threads going for this same project (my apologies to the mods, could they be cumbined?). The other is "dry compression test".

As l've said before, l can do mechanical things but l'm not a mechanic.
I just reviewed a video on valve replacement and realize l may be over my head as l don't have any specialized tools i.e. something to compress the spring l'm assuming so the keepers or clips can be removed. Does everyone who has done rebuilds have these or what else could be used?
I've already purchased new springs, guides, retainers. Maybe l got the cart before the horse.
Looking for some guidance.

Thanks
Hutch
Why is there never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time to do it over. :?:

Gary Dotson
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Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Gary Dotson » Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:03 am

Yes, there are several more things to consider. If you're going to this much extreme, you'll need to re-cut or re-grind the valve seats which require specialized tooling. You may even find that some of the valve seats need to be replaced. Changing the guides is no job for the lighted hearted, either. They have to be pulled out with a puller, of some sort, then driven in with a specialized driver tool. These tools can be made or devised by a clever person but it's more things to consider. Of course, you haven't opened it up yet to even know if you need those guides. They don't generally wear much on a Cub.

Eugene
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Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Eugene » Sun Nov 01, 2020 8:58 am

k hutchins wrote:I just reviewed a video on valve replacement and realize l may be over my head as l don't have any specialized tools i.e. something to compress the spring.
Valve spring compressers. There are several styles. Which style depends on the engine you are working on. Previous discussions on the topic, search function.

Removing and installing valve guides. Again search function. You can make a simple tool to remove the guides. Installing is a bit more complicated because they have to be set at a specific depth.

You do need to remove the valves to inspect and most likely touch up the seats and valve faces.

As Gary stated the guides typically do not wear enough to require replcement. Same for the springs and keepers.

When I rebuilt my Cub engine the valves needed to be ground. I don't have a valve grinding machine. New valves cost a tad bit more than having valves ground. Purchased new valves then lapped the new valves to the seats.
I have an excuse. CRS.

k hutchins
10+ Years
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Posts: 631
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:48 pm
Zip Code: 48843
Tractors Owned: 1948 Farmall Cub
193 plow
1948 snow/grading blade
Woods 59 C3
Cub 144 cultivator
Cub 22 mower
Cub 172 one row planter
Original manuals for all the above
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby k hutchins » Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:33 pm

All right, started take down today.
Pulled the manifold, air cleaner housing, valve cover, and handlift off. Cleaning and checking things as l go. It's amazing how much grime and crud can accumulate in nooks and crannies over time.

I have a couple questions.

1 l saw a post somewhere about taking the air cleaner apart to clean it internally, but can't find it. If someone could point me in the right direction l'd appreciate it.

2 What is the purpose of the set screw in the neck of the intake manifold above the carb?

The more l contemplate what l set out to do, the more l think l may just leave most of it alone other than clean and check. I've decided not to do valves unless when l pull the head and check the operation something really doesn't look right.
As far as the lower end. Again once l pull the oil pan if measuring the crank tells me l need bearings then so be it. If everything checks out l'll leave well enough alone. Just make sure things are good with new gaskets and button it back up.

Tomorrow l split it to retrieve the rear oil seal so l can get it shipped off to tst while l check out the other parts.
Again, any and all input is welcome
Why is there never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time to do it over. :?:

Eugene
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Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Eugene » Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:12 pm

1. Air cleaner, you don't take it apart, just soak in solvent.
2. Vacuum to operate milking machines.
I have an excuse. CRS.

k hutchins
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 631
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2012 5:48 pm
Zip Code: 48843
Tractors Owned: 1948 Farmall Cub
193 plow
1948 snow/grading blade
Woods 59 C3
Cub 144 cultivator
Cub 22 mower
Cub 172 one row planter
Original manuals for all the above
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby k hutchins » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:28 pm

Thanks Eugene, l knew someone had the answers. I can't believe l've been operating this tractor for 52 yrs, and doing all the work on it for 43 yrs, and l'm finding out how much l don't know, or never realized.
I split it about 14 yrs years to replace the throw out bearing, but forgot how much needed to be disconnected. Other than 72 yrs of grunge everything l took apart appears to be in good shape.
20201108_143047.jpg
I'm not sure the rear seal was the problem. If you look at the bottom of it you'll see someone (me) used forma gasket instead of a real gasket when the oil pan was removed and put back on years ago.



20201108_143208.jpg
The fly wheel and clutch aren't soak in oil, but they aren't spotless either.


20201108_143335.jpg


20201108_143523.jpg
A look at the inside of the seal. As is, l didn't even wipe it off.


20201108_143432.jpg
Another look at where the silicone gasket oozed out. By the way, the bolts holding the seal plate in place were bearly more than finger tight, including the ones for the pan.


That's where l'm at right now. If anyone sees anything that needs attention please let me know. More pics of other parts coming as l progress.
Why is there never enough time to do the job right, but always enough time to do it over. :?:

Eugene
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Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Eugene » Sun Nov 08, 2020 6:35 pm

3rd photo, pressure plate fingers, right and bottom left fingers appear to have excessive wear.
I have an excuse. CRS.

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Glen
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Tractors Owned: 1956 Farmall Cub with Fast Hitch, F-11 plow, Disc, Cultivator, Cub-22 mower
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Location: Wa.

Re: Time for TLC on Workhorse

Postby Glen » Sun Nov 08, 2020 7:16 pm

Hi,
It's hard to know where it is leaking without being there to see it.
I would put on an oil pan gasket. TM Tractor sells them.
You can use a thin coating of sealer on the gasket, it might help prevent seeping over time.
When the pan is off, check the top surface with a straight edge, and straighten it if needed.
They can get bent at the bolt holes from tightening the bolts.

The 3 pressure plate fingers where the throwout bearing touch on should be smooth to your fingers.
I can't see in the pic if they are rough, or it is just old grease on them.

If you are going to use the same pressure plate again, and the fingers are rough, sand them with fine sandpaper, and smooth them.
If they are rough, they can wear the throwout bearing.

To clean the air cleaner, I cover the connection for the air cleaner to carburetor pipe, turn the air cleaner upside down, and pour some kerosene in it. Put on the oil cup, with no oil in it, and shake the air cleaner every direction for a while.
Remove the oil cup and pour out the kerosene. If you pour it in a clean oil drain pan, you can see what was in the air cleaner.
Repeat using the kerosene if it is still dirty.
Clean out the pipe through the middle of the air cleaner, it gets dirty too.
I use a small piece of rag folded up, and push it through the pipe, and out the bottom, using a long dowel, or something.
Pour some kerosene through the pipe too.

The air cleaner oil cup should have light motor oil in it. They have said on here that thick oil in the oil cup can make the engine start hard in cold weather.
The air has to pass through the oil in the oil cup.
Hope this helps. :)


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