Extra snap ring?

[halftonstude]

Hello forum. After 5 days I'm officially stumped. I don't want the group to think I'm looking for an easy answer. I'm at the end of my rope. Background: this isn't my first rodeo restoring or rebuilding a complex mechanical piece of machinery (although some could argue the Cub is a fairly simple piece of machinery LOL!). I've searched the forum (and the internet in general) for as many occurrences of "snap ring", "PTO", "transmission" as I could think of, and I've had no luck. I have a November 1952 Cub that I'm restoring. It is now past 100% completely disassembled and I'm working on the reassembly/repair/replace/repaint portion of the job. Transmission is 351530-R3, date code is 8 12 X (1952). I have hundreds of photographs and probably an equal number of zip lock bags with labels on them. Parts manual, service manual, owners manual have all been consulted (though I didn't expect to see anything in the owners manual regarding my issue.) On my bench is the almost fully assembled transmission with PTO. I do understand that older bearings sometimes came with extra parts - an external shield where a new bearing might have an integral shield, etc. I have two snap rings of identically equal size on my bench immediately adjacent to my transmission. I know one of them is 69 696D, the snap ring to secure the PTO shaft bearing in the PTO shaft oil seal and bearing retainer (this is a large snap ring, not the small one that holds a newer bearing on a new pto shaft). The second snap ring is identical in size and shape and I can neither see physically nor locate on paper the location of another one of these snap rings in the transmission. I have enough CDO to only work on one component at a time so it is completely unlikely that this snap ring came from another part of the tractor (engine, finals, etc). (CDO is a condition that has identical symptoms as OCD, but the letters are in alphabetical order...) According to the numerical index, 69 696D is only located on two pages of the parts manual: 111 and 112 (oh yes, I'm using parts catalog TC-37C which seems appropriate for my year tractor - but I have looked in other parts catalogs for the years adjacent to my year of manufacture) 111 is where the snap ring is identified as item 13 (PTO shaft bearing snap ring), and page 112 identifies it as item 25 which is part of the belt pulley assembly, which this tractor does not have. I've removed transmission spline shaft oil seal now twice looking in there to see if there was a groove for a snap ring, as well as removing the countershaft bearing retainer cap to look there too (I'm fearful I'll be removing both pieces again to look once more... that CDO kicks in when you least expect it) however there are no groves in either location. Can anyone with more experience than me help identify from where this other snap ring may have come? I know this transmission was worked on before, as when I removed the gears from the case I located two components that had fallen into the bottom of the tranny: a "spare" gear shifter poppet ball, and a broken ear from the first/reverse shifter fork (obviously the fork was replaced after the PO couldn't shift between those two gears, but the broken ear was left in the bottom of the transmission.) It is possible an extra ring was placed somewhere in there, but I'll be looking through my photographs again (third time's a charm) to see if I photographed removing two snap rings. Any help would be greatly appreciated, and the best I can offer in return is hopefully post answers to other people's questions when the topic is within the scope of one of my areas of expertise. Thank you all for your time in reading this lengthy post.
c

[Bob McCarty]

I didn't look up your part #, but there is a snap ring that holds the bearing on the input shaft at the front of the tranny. You may not have the bearing on far enough to see the groove for the snap ring.

[Jim Becker]

Did you buy a new PTO shaft bearing? If so, did it come with a new snap ring?

[halftonstude]

Hi Bob. Snap ring that holds the bearing on the input shaft at the front of the tranny. That's a small round spring wire style snap ring that is in place on the transmission input shaft. When I replaced that bearing (with a new shaft - old shaft had over 1" of wobble at the pilot bushing end) that snap ring got replaced. My "extra" snap ring is big and flat and identical in shape to the one that holds the bearing in the retainer for the pto shaft. My snap ring o.d. is approximately 2.2675", which tells me it's intended for a 2.250" bearing.

Hi Jim. PTO shaft bearing has 0 play, at least that which could not be measured with my indicator (.001"), and also it is staked in place in three locations around the diameter of the shaft, as is indicated in several posts in the forum here. That bearing was not replaced. PTO shaft is original and bearing is in excellent condition.

To both of you, thank you very much for your thought and consideration of my problem. I'll keep looking. I've moved to the torque tube to put the clutch release bearing and retainer along with the yoke in place to get ready to bolt those two pieces back together. The tranny sits on my bench still, forlorn, looking for a home for the extra snap ring. sniff...

[Glen]

Hi,
The snap ring could have come with something you bought, not sure though.
If you have checked the manuals, and every snap ring is in place, then the extra one is not needed.

Check the throwout bearing yoke holes, and the top pin, for wear, the holes should be round. The yoke should hold the bearing in one position, and not feel loose.
The 2 halves of the yoke have to hold the bearing firmly, so the top of the bearing doesn't flop down against the pressure plate fingers.
TM Tractor has a new yoke, for Cubs serial number 32229 and above, and pin.

[ntrenn]

Pretty sure your missing location is on the front countershaft bearing, item 33, page 7-7. It’s used to axially locate the countershaft and to set the bevel gear pattern..
It’s called out as part of the bearing...

[Jim Becker]

Pretty sure your missing location is on the front countershaft bearing, . . .

Good possibility. The front countershaft and PTO bearings are the same OD. Did you replace the countershaft bearing?

[halftonstude]

hi Glen. Both snap rings had dirty oil on them in the pile. My habit is to keep the new parts away from the mess on my bench until it's time to replace a part, then I remove the old part from the bench, compare with the new, install the new, and when I'm sure it's correct throw the old part into the metal bin. I'm telling you CDO helps keep things in order!!! Your comments on the throw out bearing yoke holes are spot on time, I just put the new bearing (bushing?) on the yoke last night and noticed the snugness/tightness of the fit. The holes for the throw-out bearing are still very round and snug. I may weld a bushing into the holes that have the pin for the operating lever to snug up some of the play that might be there, that hole is just slightly egg shaped. Thank you very much!

Ntrenn I'm not sure what document you're referring to page 7-7 item 33, I'm using the TC-37C parts manual, where it's called out on page 74 as item 47. Golly that looks like a bearing (outer race and cone) and a snap ring, yet what appears to look like a snap ring is called out only as a bearing in the description. You may have found it. I'm going to look (again) right now!

Ok pulled the countershaft cap and retainer and lo and behold on the bearing itself is a groove that would appear to hold a snap ring! when i pressed the retainer back into the casting (bearing is already pressed onto the countershaft) the bearing was pushed in too far into the retainer to see this groove and that's why I missed it these three times. By jove i think you've found it! Thank you very much for your help! Now i'll have to go back through the service manual to make sure the countershaft front bearing is installed correctly (I didn't have to remove it.. but who knows if the PO did)

I owe you one, thank you

c

[halftonstude]

I have a follow up question. The service manual does not indicate the direction in which that front countershaft bearing inserts into the casting. the groove on the bearing is on the front side of the bearing, meaning the retainer would be pressed into the casting first, then the snap ring installed, which would have a tendency to pull the countershaft forward. that appears to be the correct direction to apply pressure to the bearings.

Just tore it all apart, adjusted depth of bearing for snap ring, seated the ring against the retainer, made two new gaskets, and re-assembled. I can sleep peacefully tonight knowing it's put together correctly. I owe you a beer ntrenn, thank you! thank everybody for all your help and quick and meaningful replies, what a lifesaver this group is!
c

[Glen]

Hi,
Below is a listing at TM Tractor for a new countershaft front bearing. It is a Case IH part, it says.
The snap ring is in place on the bearing.

http://www.tmtractor.com/new/tr/467fp.htm

I think the cap would not fit on, if the bearing was on the shaft backwards.

The spacing of the differential ring and pinion gears needs setting correctly, as you are putting the transmission together. Maybe you already did that, it is shown in the Cub service manual.

[halftonstude]

Thanks Glen. Have rebuilt many differentials (converted my studebaker pickup from open 4.89 to twin-traction 3.73, rebuilt two rear ends there, made a case spreader from scratch, and needed shims rather than crush collars for an early 50's vintage Dana 44...) so that would explain the lack of backlash I had (pinion was too far into the diff, pattern was way down by the heel). you're right, if the bearing was in the wrong way the snap ring would have it protrude into the cap too far, but that wasn't my case as the snap ring wasn't on at all. And with the retainer in it pushed the pinion farther in, so i couldn't see the groove on the bearing. Thanks for the link!
c

[ntrenn]

So glad I was able to help. I was in Tc37f....I have it loaded in iBooks on my phone.

You didn’t know it at the time, but you bought founders mosaic promise tonight....

I hate doing patterns....hope yours came to you...

[halftonstude]

mosaic hops and golden promise malt??? i'm a stout man myself...

[ntrenn]

Son picked it...I backed it up with new Belgium trippel...

[MikeEyre74]

Hey fellows... Sorry to bust in on anything old thread, but I think this is the mystery piece I was running into myself on my 185 trans rebuild. I came up with an "extra part" and couldn't figure out where it went. I think this is it. The transmissions are the same I guess, but since I was posting in the numbered series forums, you guys probably didn’t see it over there. Can you take a look at this thread and let me know if this is the same part that you guys were referring to?

viewtopic.php?f=31&t=104912

If it is, oh boy..... I got things together all wrong. I’ll have to take the whole thing back apart if so.