Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

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MikeEyre74
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Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

Postby MikeEyre74 » Mon May 27, 2019 9:20 pm

I get it, they are straight cut gears and it’s not a race car. But still, I push in the clutch at idle and whatever gear I pick it still grinds a little and it hurts my feelings. Is that normal, or what do I need to fix?

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Re: Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

Postby tst » Mon May 27, 2019 9:24 pm

check your clutch adjustment, condition of clutch, if it is not releasing all the way it will grind

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Re: Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

Postby Scrivet » Mon May 27, 2019 10:42 pm

I'll add to that list a tight pilot bushing. With tractor running engage the PTO, put the tractor in neutral, let up on the clutch, then push it in. How long before the PTO stops? Does it stop?? The PTO when engaged, is a direct connection to the driveshaft, The drive shaft turns at engine speed when the clutch pedal is up.

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Re: Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

Postby ricky racer » Tue May 28, 2019 5:45 am

Wait a couple of seconds after depressing the clutch peddle before moving the shifter.
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Re: Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

Postby Lt.Mike » Wed May 29, 2019 10:27 am

Try engaging the pto and depress the clutch while watching the pto shaft. Does it stop right away? After a few seconds does it stop or does it move slowly as if a pilot bushing was dragging?
With the pto engaged it may stop sooner if the pilot bushing is dragging but this may give you a better idea of what’s going on.
With my tractors if I press the clutch and go for a gear right away it’ll grind but if I wait 3-4 seconds its good. Also alignment makes a difference too. Going back and forth between reverse and first it’ll never grind (like when plowing snow), certain gears shift into others from a previous gear smoother than to others.
I don’t put too much thought into it.
There’s times my Honda Valkyrie will clunk into gear with the grace of an old tractor. It is what it is.
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Re: Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

Postby DonMountain » Thu May 30, 2019 11:20 am

I had the same problem with a clutch that was installed 25 years ago and heavy use. Even after adjusting the pedal height and the clutch fingers multiple times I finally replaced the clutch disk, pressure plate, throw out bearing and the bearing support brackets. And that resolved the entire problem. When I push the clutch pedal down and reach for the shifter and put it in gear there is no gear banging at all any more. The gears stop turning by the time the clutch pedal is at the bottom of its range.
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MikeEyre74
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Re: Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

Postby MikeEyre74 » Thu May 30, 2019 2:41 pm

So doing this PTO trick it looks like the clutch is dragging for a while because the pto keeps spinning for a long time. If I time if for when the pto stops spinning, which it does occasionally, it’ll slide into gear nicely. I’ll recheck my clutch adjustment and try again.
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Re: Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

Postby MikeEyre74 » Thu May 30, 2019 3:04 pm

I took a couple of videos and a photograph because I see the problem I think, but I’m not sure what I need here. Perhaps a new throwout bearing?

Here’s the pic of the throwout bearing and the current setting on the gap between the fingers and the bearing itself.

https://flic.kr/p/2g5KhtD

Here’s a video of the grinding noise that it currently makes now that I have the free play tightened up a little bit. I believe it was grinding because I wasn’t getting the clutch fully disengaged. If I make the free plate adjustment anything less than about an inch and a quarter, the carrier that holds the throwout bearing starts to make contact with the pressure plate fingers. I do not understand if there is an adjustment to fix this, it doesn’t look like it? I remember now, that I look at it, I was compensating for that grinding noise by giving the clutch pedal more free play then it should have had, to keep the throwout bearing carrier from making contact with the fingers, which is probably why it grinds when I put it into gear.

https://flic.kr/p/2g5JWzr

And here’s the free play as it’s set now. It’s still too much but I can my takeout any more or it’ll rub internally.

https://flic.kr/p/2g5JMgr

What should I do next?
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Re: Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

Postby Glen » Thu May 30, 2019 6:03 pm

Hi,
The throwout bearing still looks good in your pic, if the graphite part of it is flat, and in good condition.
The graphite sticks out of a new bearing 5/16", yours looks close to that in the pic.

The 3 pressure plate fingers are probably too low, and need adjusting, a sort of common problem with Cubs. They have adjustments to raise them up.
The throwout bearing and it's holder can only go a certain distance forward before they hit the turning pressure plate. If the fingers are too low, the clutch won't fully release, probably why the clutch shaft and PTO don't stop turning when you push the clutch pedal down.
Below is a post showing how to raise up the fingers, working through the hand hole.

viewtopic.php?f=141&t=66543

The 3 fingers should all be the same height, so the bearing has a flat surface to push on. The height is 1 1/4" in the post.
You need to make the tool in the post, to adjust the fingers.
Use a good light to work up in the handhole.
Before beginning to raise the fingers, loosen the free play adjustment bolt, and move the throwout bearing and holder to the rear, it gives more room to work between the flywheel and throwout bearing.
Then you will need to set the free play again when done adjusting the fingers. The free play is measured at the surface where you put your foot.

You didn't say what year the Cub is. Below is a page from the 1955 Cub owner's manual, showing how to set the free play, and there is a pic of the clutch. This is the adjustment for Cubs serial number 32229 and above.
If the Cub is older than that, the 1947 Cub owner's manual shows how to adjust it. The adjustment is inside the clutch housing for those.

http://farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.clea ... e%2056.jpg

The pic below shows where to measure to adjust the finger height. The pressure plate has to be assembled on the flywheel, not off, like the pic shows.
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Cub clutch 3.jpg

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MikeEyre74
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Re: Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

Postby MikeEyre74 » Fri May 31, 2019 5:26 am

Oh, I like that tool you made to get the measurement right. That’s nice... I don’t have a right angle ratcheting screwdriver tho. I guess I’ll have to pick one of those up. I can’t see how to do this properly otherwise?
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Re: Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

Postby Eugene » Fri May 31, 2019 10:47 am

I would split the tractor and investigate.

Could be pilot shaft bushing and/or pressure plate finger adjustment.

From the photos, throw out bearing chipped? Can't really tell from the photos.
I have an excuse. CRS.

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Re: Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

Postby Glen » Fri May 31, 2019 4:14 pm

Hi,
The lighting in your throwout bearing pic above is only lighting part of the bearing, I think.
Below is a pic of a new throwout bearing, it has to be shaped like this bearing, but the graphite can be worn down some, and still work.
If you don't want to split the Cub, the ratcheting screwdriver is handy for doing the adjusting.
The post about adjusting the fingers is from the How To Forum, and made by Jeff Silvey. :)
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MikeEyre74
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Re: Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

Postby MikeEyre74 » Fri May 31, 2019 5:07 pm

Well, I did it. After thinking a little bit, I didn’t have to go get a ratcheting screwdriver after all, I just used one of the removable bits out of the kind you put in a drill, and it fit right into the end of my quarter inch drive ratchet with a small six point socket on it. With that out-of-the-way, I was able to get that up in there and make the adjustment to the fingers. According to the tool I made, but following the directions that were posted above, it looks like my fingers were about one quarter - to five sixteenths of an inch too low. Here’s a pic, using the tool I made from a piece of coat hanger.

https://flic.kr/p/2g6oSkT

It was really a lot easier than I figured it was going to be. Now, I have to step on the clutch and count to four and then I could slide it into gear without too much issue. If I leave the PTO engaged, it works like butter, so there may be some where in tear in here that’s causing some drag still that the PTO help to solve, but I just don’t feel safe leaving the PTO running all the time like that.

In either case, I’m going to give it a little time, because I think things are changing for the better as the parts wear in to the spots that they are now sitting against on that throwout bearing and see how things go. Thanks for the assistance!
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Re: Not a syncro trans, I know.. but still?

Postby Glen » Fri May 31, 2019 8:14 pm

Hi,
Good that it is working better.
It looks like the throwout bearing graphite is damaged, or chipped off on the edges, from the bearing going too far ahead when the fingers were adjusted too low.
If the throwout bearing graphite breaks and comes apart, you will need to split the Cub and replace the bearing.

Don't push the clutch pedal down fully, if it is adjusted so the throwout bearing or holder hits the pressure plate. It can damage the parts. It makes a metal to metal sound if they are hitting together, with the engine running.
You could wipe a thin layer of grease on the front of the throwout bearing, part way around is good enough, the fingers will spread it around. :)


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