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hyd. oil
- Thread starter tomcat
- Start date
ScottyD'sdad
501 Club
Don't oils that meet Hytran specs, have the same properties? Otherwise, why would they meet the specs? Ed
Exactly!ScottyD'sdad":3cr3hojq said:Don't oils that meet Hytran specs, have the same properties? Otherwise, why would they meet the specs? Ed
As long as the hydraulic fluid that one is using meets MS 1209 standards, then that particular hydraulic fluid can be used in a Cub's Touch Control. That is why there is a standard. No company can make a single fluid that meets every manufacturer's needs. So manufacturers spec out what they want according to the standards developed by the industry and petroleum companies produce it so that a specific manufacturer say IH or MF can market it as Hy-Tran or Perma-Tran. Remember IH and MF and the others didn't produce their own hydraulics fluids or any fluids for that matter, it was the oil industry that did that and still does. Shell, Exxon-Mobile, Chevron, Gulf, Ultramar, Irving and others all produce hydraulic and other fluids that get packaged in manufacturer brand containers and they also produce for the large retail outlets like Wal-Mart, Sears, TSC house brands and the list goes on.
As I mentioned the only critical issue is that whatever hydraulic fluid one uses in their Cubs is that it meets or exceeds MS 1209 specifications. If Wally World does it and that floats yer boat, then Wally World Hydraulic Fluid is what one would buy.
IH knew that not every one of their customers would consistently have access or the ability to afford Hy-Tran, which is why they spec'd out that you need to pay attention to the MS-1209 compatibility issue. As long as you use fluids that meet or exceed that standard there should be no risk of damage to the innards of the TC unit or the Tranny if Hy-Tran is used there. From my understanding all fluids that meet MS-1209 emulsify water to protect the units.
As I mentioned the only critical issue is that whatever hydraulic fluid one uses in their Cubs is that it meets or exceeds MS 1209 specifications. If Wally World does it and that floats yer boat, then Wally World Hydraulic Fluid is what one would buy.
IH knew that not every one of their customers would consistently have access or the ability to afford Hy-Tran, which is why they spec'd out that you need to pay attention to the MS-1209 compatibility issue. As long as you use fluids that meet or exceed that standard there should be no risk of damage to the innards of the TC unit or the Tranny if Hy-Tran is used there. From my understanding all fluids that meet MS-1209 emulsify water to protect the units.
ScottyD'sdad
501 Club
We need to remember that the oils and fluids of today, are far superior to the hytran of 1947. I'd predict that the cheapest hydraulic fluid, available today, far exceeds the standards, from 1947, or even 1975, meaning that todays cheapest fluid, is more than likely, better than a can of NOS Hytran, from 1960. Ed
Winfield Dave
501 Club
Very good point Ed...ScottyD'sdad":1mvid8tf said:We need to remember that the oils and fluids of today, are far superior to the hytran of 1947. I'd predict that the cheapest hydraulic fluid, available today, far exceeds the standards, from 1947, or even 1975, meaning that todays cheapest fluid, is more than likely, better than a can of NOS Hytran, from 1960. Ed
A few comments then I will bite my tongue.
Google, the internet, cubs, and Hy-Tran are contemporaries. Whether Google was around when cubs were first made really makes no difference. Now it is easy to search the internet from home or work and find a lot of useful information. You have to sort through all the fluff and cannot believe all you read on any web board no matter how hard they type.
From the two basic types of hydraulic transmission combo oils which is better for a cub? Demulsifying or emulsifying? It seem like an emulsifying oil would have some advantages and that is what Hy-Tran is. Is Hy-Tran oil the only emulsifying oil made? No! I have drained the TSC fluid from several cubs and cub cadets, I know what the oil was since I put it into the transmissions. It comes out milky years later just like any emulsifying oil.
It would be interesting to see if the mil specs specify emulsifiers.
Advice, opinions, data are all useful to some extent. That is what is good about this and other web boards but advice not taken does not mean that advice has fallen on deaf ears, it just means people have what people have which is....Free will....they can listen or not to advice but they ultimately make their own decisions , right, wrong, or indifferent.
Google, the internet, cubs, and Hy-Tran are contemporaries. Whether Google was around when cubs were first made really makes no difference. Now it is easy to search the internet from home or work and find a lot of useful information. You have to sort through all the fluff and cannot believe all you read on any web board no matter how hard they type.
From the two basic types of hydraulic transmission combo oils which is better for a cub? Demulsifying or emulsifying? It seem like an emulsifying oil would have some advantages and that is what Hy-Tran is. Is Hy-Tran oil the only emulsifying oil made? No! I have drained the TSC fluid from several cubs and cub cadets, I know what the oil was since I put it into the transmissions. It comes out milky years later just like any emulsifying oil.
It would be interesting to see if the mil specs specify emulsifiers.
Advice, opinions, data are all useful to some extent. That is what is good about this and other web boards but advice not taken does not mean that advice has fallen on deaf ears, it just means people have what people have which is....Free will....they can listen or not to advice but they ultimately make their own decisions , right, wrong, or indifferent.
http://www.deere.com/en_US/parts/partsi ... aulic.html
Read the advertisement for John Deere hydraulic fluid - under Features.
Then read the specifications on the left side of the page - under Service Ratings.
Read the advertisement for John Deere hydraulic fluid - under Features.
Then read the specifications on the left side of the page - under Service Ratings.
OK non-believers, I will give my $.02.
Hy-Tran didn't exist in '47. The original oil was 10wt. oil. Later, there was "Touch Control Fluid." This was the precursor to Hy-Tran. I wouldn't consider using NOS Hy-Tran--I would probably put it my oil can and put the container on a shelf with my other IH goodies! If I understand the history right, "issues" they had with the old 10wt. oil led to the development of Touch Control Fluid which led to the the development of Hy-Tran.
There are lots of things one can do to save money on these old tractors. Making/repairing your old parts, or making your own gaskets are two examples.
IMO, oil, fluids, and filters are NOT places to cut corners or express one's individuality by using something "different."
Yes, a generic oil may "meet" Hy-Tran specs. The bottom line is that with Hy-Tran there is no "meeting" the spec, it IS the spec. Every IH mechanic, both dealer-employees and independents, have all told me the same thing: Hy-Tran is the best oil you can buy for an IH tractor. These men together have had hundreds of tractors' guts spread out on their workbenches. That carries a lot of weight with me--they've seen and done it all.
I am sure there are oodles of tractors running around without Hy-Tran in their systems. I expect they are running fine. As Brother Dave Gardner used to say, "everybody to their own kick!" But as I said earlier, I am not going to cut corners on oils. Yes Hy-Tran is expensive, but anyone price a T/A overhaul in an 856 lately?
Al
Hy-Tran didn't exist in '47. The original oil was 10wt. oil. Later, there was "Touch Control Fluid." This was the precursor to Hy-Tran. I wouldn't consider using NOS Hy-Tran--I would probably put it my oil can and put the container on a shelf with my other IH goodies! If I understand the history right, "issues" they had with the old 10wt. oil led to the development of Touch Control Fluid which led to the the development of Hy-Tran.
There are lots of things one can do to save money on these old tractors. Making/repairing your old parts, or making your own gaskets are two examples.
IMO, oil, fluids, and filters are NOT places to cut corners or express one's individuality by using something "different."
Yes, a generic oil may "meet" Hy-Tran specs. The bottom line is that with Hy-Tran there is no "meeting" the spec, it IS the spec. Every IH mechanic, both dealer-employees and independents, have all told me the same thing: Hy-Tran is the best oil you can buy for an IH tractor. These men together have had hundreds of tractors' guts spread out on their workbenches. That carries a lot of weight with me--they've seen and done it all.
I am sure there are oodles of tractors running around without Hy-Tran in their systems. I expect they are running fine. As Brother Dave Gardner used to say, "everybody to their own kick!" But as I said earlier, I am not going to cut corners on oils. Yes Hy-Tran is expensive, but anyone price a T/A overhaul in an 856 lately?
Al
This is a really interesting topic as it always is... and I am always checking stuff out on the internet. One of the things I looked at on the Deere site that Eugene pointed to was the specs for CaseIH
Appears that MS-1210 is a CaseIH standard which kind of surprised me, so I googled MS-1209 Specifications Hydraulic Fluids and found a few interesting tidbits:
AMSOIL Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil - scroll down and check Specifications
UTF Hydraulic Tractor Fluid - scroll down and check Specifications
Valvoline Unitrac Fluid
Kubota® Super UDT Fluid Messicks :?:
Case Akcela TCH Hydraulic Fluid, Case Akcela HyTran Ultra Tractor Fluid
I have a call into my local east coast refiner - Irving Oil and their COASTAL Blending & Packaging to find out how their products stack up against Hy-Tran/Hy-Tran Ultra.
One thing I noticed is that many of these fluids are brownish in colour similar to the base oils, whereas Hy-Tran, Hy-Tran Ultra and Permatran are pinkish-red (both products are almost indistinguishable from each other). I think Hy-Gard is also the same. I would lean toward these as they probably are emulsifiers.
As I said, kinda interesting material.
[url=http://www.deere.com/en_US/parts/partsinfo/oils_and_lubricants/oil_hydraulic.html:2w0j3edy said:Hy-Gard™ Hydraulic/Transmission Oil[/url]":2w0j3edy]
CNH
Case, Case-IH: MS-1207, MS-1209,
MS-1210, MS-1
Appears that MS-1210 is a CaseIH standard which kind of surprised me, so I googled MS-1209 Specifications Hydraulic Fluids and found a few interesting tidbits:
AMSOIL Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil - scroll down and check Specifications
UTF Hydraulic Tractor Fluid - scroll down and check Specifications
Valvoline Unitrac Fluid
Kubota® Super UDT Fluid Messicks :?:
Case Akcela TCH Hydraulic Fluid, Case Akcela HyTran Ultra Tractor Fluid
I have a call into my local east coast refiner - Irving Oil and their COASTAL Blending & Packaging to find out how their products stack up against Hy-Tran/Hy-Tran Ultra.
One thing I noticed is that many of these fluids are brownish in colour similar to the base oils, whereas Hy-Tran, Hy-Tran Ultra and Permatran are pinkish-red (both products are almost indistinguishable from each other). I think Hy-Gard is also the same. I would lean toward these as they probably are emulsifiers.
As I said, kinda interesting material.
Rudi":qxkjchwu said:This is a really interesting topic as it always is... and I am always checking stuff out on the internet. One of the things I looked at on the Deere site that Eugene pointed to was the specs for CaseIH
[url=http://www.deere.com/en_US/parts/partsinfo/oils_and_lubricants/oil_hydraulic.html:qxkjchwu said:Hy-Gard™ Hydraulic/Transmission Oil[/url]":qxkjchwu]
CNH
Case, Case-IH: MS-1207, MS-1209,
MS-1210, MS-1
Appears that MS-1210 is a CaseIH standard which kind of surprised me, so I googled MS-1209 Specifications Hydraulic Fluids and found a few interesting tidbits:
AMSOIL Synthetic Tractor Hydraulic/Transmission Oil - scroll down and check Specifications
UTF Hydraulic Tractor Fluid - scroll down and check Specifications
Valvoline Unitrac Fluid
Kubota® Super UDT Fluid Messicks :?:
Case Akcela TCH Hydraulic Fluid, Case Akcela HyTran Ultra Tractor Fluid
I have a call into my local east coast refiner - Irving Oil and their COASTAL Blending & Packaging to find out how their products stack up against Hy-Tran/Hy-Tran Ultra.
One thing I noticed is that many of these fluids are brownish in colour similar to the base oils, whereas Hy-Tran, Hy-Tran Ultra and Permatran are pinkish-red (both products are almost indistinguishable from each other). I think Hy-Gard is also the same. I would lean toward these as they probably are emulsifiers.
As I said, kinda interesting material.
I've always heard, as mentioned here, that Hy-Gard makes water separate from the hydraulic fluid. Also heard "back in the day" that bad things would happen if you used Hy-Tran in an older JD. Not sure how true it is though.
I am sure some folks' brains would explode if they saw the price for Hy-Gard! :big smile:
Al