Cubs and Disc Harrows

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Cubs and Disc Harrows

Postby Rudi » Fri Apr 28, 2006 4:46 pm

Guys:

I need some major advice here.

My disc harrow is not set up like any that I have seen in the Need A Lift thread...

And I am having a hard time trying to figure out how to modify this old horse drawn type harrow to mount up to my Cub.

How far must the harrow front brace be from the rear wheels to not be likely to fetch up????

Will try to post a pic a little later..
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Postby Bigdog » Fri Apr 28, 2006 5:50 pm

Rudi - the distance will be dependent upon the amount of sway you want to leave in the hitch.
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Postby cowboy » Fri Apr 28, 2006 6:10 pm

Hi Rudi

That will depend on the angle from your lifting point. Most lifting systems tend to bring your implements closer to the tractor as you lift them. Also the tire goes farther back untill you get to the center horzontal of the tire. The less the weight of the disk the farther back from the tractor you can lift. Giving you clearence to the tractor. You will have to factor in sway too. Trying to trun with the disk in the ground will be difficult unless it is disigned to pivot like the 23A. The best way is to lift the disk in a turn only use it going strait. The 12' Jd disks were weak in the tounge and every one I saw had been welded and reinforsed becuse of trying to make turns without lifting it. You most likely will have to mock it up like you want with all the weight you will want on it and see if you can lift it. And lift it without making the front end too light to steer. Before welding or bolting it together.

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Postby Rudi » Fri Apr 28, 2006 7:21 pm

Guys:

Dad and I just came in from playing tractor again.

We got the disc to lift. But it was difficult.

I just received a Instruction Manual and Parts List Setting Up and Operating the McCormick-deering Out-Throw Disk Harrow (6 Ft, 7 Ft, 8 Ft and 10 Ft) Third Lever Type.. Part # 1 003 510 R1 10-24-45 -4B.

As far as I can tell.. this is the harrow that I have. The 6 Ft model...

Originally meant for a team of horses. It is heavy.. I am not going to require bricks or other weighty items for this puppy :!: :roll: :wink: :lol: :lol:

I was looking in my Cub-38 Disc Harrow Manual and I see that the hook up is similar but not exactly to what I have.

What I have tried to do was to ensure that on the drawbar brackets the pin only is used with the bolts removed from position A in the drawbar bracket so that the drawbar can actually pivot.

However, I cannot lift the harrow with this setup. If I put bolts in "where I really shouldn't", then I can pick it up quite easily, although it is pretty heavy. I have to make sure that I do not use a bolt through the tongue to the drawbar, but use a hitch pin instead so that there is a bit of pivot to the setup.

I gotta figure out a better way, because I DO NOT want to bust my castings, and I am sure I will if I don't.

My problem is, I don't know how to do this...

Because I cannot see exactly how the Cub-38 harrow is mounted, I cannot figure it out.. and it does not explain it all that well in the manual.. mostly cause it assumes that you can see all the parts on the ground in front of you...

Any help guys would be useful...

I forgot the camera in the shop. Will go back down in a minute or two and retrieve it. Then I can resize the pics and upload and then add them to the thread .. a pic is worth a 1,000 words.. and here that old colloquialism has never been more true :!: :roll: :shock: :wink: :lol: :lol:
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Postby Rudi » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:01 pm

Guys:

K, here are some pics...

HELP :!: :!:

This is the McCormick-Deering Out Throw Disk Harrow 6 Foot

Image

This is a pic of the harrow mounted to the drawbar in the reversed position far front mounting pads. You can see the lack of clearance between the front mount brace of the harrow and the rear tires.


Image

Here, you can see the clearance issue much better. The harrow was actually fetching up on the tires as I moved it. As soon as I turned.. :oops: :roll: :oops: :roll: not a pretty sight...... :(

Image

Here you can see how the tongue gets mounted to the drawbar. I hope yo can see how only the pin is secured so that the drawbar actually pivots as it is supposed to do. I cannot raise the harrow in this position.

Image

I tried the substitute drawbar.. nope no workee... I tried the drawbar in it's normal configuration.. nope no workee... I tried the drawbar in every conceivable way, but .. nope no workee.

The only way the drawbar will mount up properly so that the harrow frame is at least 12 inches on the bias from the rear tires is in the reversed setup and mounted to the rear mounting pads. With this setup, I will be able to actually turn a fair degree with the harrow in the down and working position... and the frame will not come in contact with the rear tires... so that problem is solved.

But.... as you can see, I also had to insert the bolts -- make the drawbar non pivoting to be able to lift the harrow. This is not smart and I know that.. I would probably end up breaking the castings.... but not sure what to do to overcome the problems...

Image

As you see here, I have hooked up the new brackets for adjusting the cutting angle on the discs... this is basically going to be it's permanent setting. I have also put in the eyebolts and hooked up the new chains. And yes, you can also see the flex in the two piece tongue. I still need to rebuild that part of the setup -- but that is pretty straightforward.

Image

Better angle of view. Oh, I will be adding a second set of lift chains. They will be mounted via eyebolts as well in the next part of the frame just forward of the discs and scraper assembly. This should help in lifting the harrow... much like Ron (Kodiak) did on his setup.

Image

Here is the harrow in the fully UP position... and I tried moving Ellie around with the harrow in the air... pretty cooooool 8) 8) :wink: :lol: I like it.

Now if I can get the rest of the problems solved...

Image

Ideas please.... I have gotten some energy, and I really would like to be able to put this project to bed in the next few days or so. Tomorrow morning I am going to get some proper length chain.. I might lighten the chain from 1/4" link to 3/16" link -- thoughts :?: :?: Need to buy another pair of eyebolts and some other hardware as well...

If you have any ideas :idea: :?: :wink: :arrow: :wink: ... and maybe a quick sketch :shock: so my poor tired NON-Mechanically minded brain :( can cope with the info... :D all would be appreciated.. 8) :D :D

Thanks
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Postby Jim Becker » Fri Apr 28, 2006 10:54 pm

I hate to be a wet blanket on this project but all I see is trouble. That disk is too heavy and too long-geared to be lifting it with a Cub Touch-Control. I think you will be better off to use it as a simple pull-behind implement with the drawbar in the normal position.
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Postby evielboweviel » Sat Apr 29, 2006 6:37 am

go back to the forward mounted drawbar which moves the disk up close to help on the touch control. Then install cross chains like the plow or three point lift arms use to keep the disk out of the tires.
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Postby Russell F » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:00 pm

The setup with a hitch pin in the drawbar and the drawbar bolted will work and shouldn't bust anthing if you have enough play. The 28A disk works in that fashion cept it had a pivoting bracket and the drawbar mounted in standard pulling fasion. You could use a clevis or something similar to give you your pivot. And use chains for side to side bracing.
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Postby Rudi » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:16 pm

Ron:

I tried that, but it puts the harrow out wayyyy too far behind Ellie and I can't pick it up at all...

Russell:

I don't have access to the 28A disc manual.. do you have any scans or something so I can see what you mean?

thanks
Last edited by Rudi on Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Rudi » Sat Apr 29, 2006 3:20 pm

Jim:

I hate to be a wet blanket on this project but all I see is trouble. That disk is too heavy and too long-geared to be lifting it with a Cub Touch-Control. I think you will be better off to use it as a simple pull-behind implement with the drawbar in the normal position.


Nope, not being a wet blanket at all... in fact it was particularily because of the concerns you raised, that Dad and I already had decided to removed as much extraneous material from the disc harrow as possible. The harrow now is pretty light.. and Ellie can lift it with ease.. no strain on the TC at all... amazing once physics is applied properly.

Dad may not be able to read, but his grasp of physics is absolutely astounding... blows me away each and every time..

As for the simple pull behind concept.. not going to happen.. mostly because I really dislike having my lawns cut up by the disc harrow. Too much work to fix up... so the lift is going to happen.. I just gotta figure out the very best scenario...

And what I need is to make sure that the castings are not subject to too much strain..
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Postby Russell F » Sat Apr 29, 2006 4:01 pm

The 28A used a simple saddle bracket that was held on the drawbar with 2 pins. A bolt through the hitch tounge acted like a axle for the disk to pivot up and down on. TM's wedsite has better pics, but i included a distant one below. I have more photes of that disk, just follow the link in my signature line below.

You could make something similar to the mounting bracket on the plow, minus the cushion springs. Take a piece of flat stock, drilled for bolting to the drawbar, then weld a piece of pipe on the rear of it, drill 2 holes through the siddes of the disk tounge, then slide a bolt through like a axles and away you go!! You will need x bracing of some sort to keep the disk from getting into the tires. Nice thing about that setup is you can leave the drawbar in the forward position after removing the plow and just reinstal the side bolts on the draw bar and bolt to the disk bracket.

In my pic below you will see above the drawbar on the axle house is a bracket with a large hole with a slot cut in it. I made that for my plow chain(turned out i did't need it tho, due to long landside). you could make 2 similar brackets and bolt in same location for the side draft chains we recomended. That is just a piece of 1/4" flat stock with a large hole bigenough for the chain to go through with a slot to catch between the links. I made that one on a mill but you could make them with a torch or drill and die grnder, etc... It is bent 45 degrees. These could be left on all the time if you didn't need those holes for someting else.



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Postby evielboweviel » Sat Apr 29, 2006 5:07 pm

Rudi
getting lost in the translation.
I was recomending the hookup in the second picture that you said it was climbing tires when turning. IF you use sway chains then the disk can not get in the tires
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Postby Rudi » Sat Apr 29, 2006 9:12 pm

Ron:

Ok, got ya.. :? :shock: :roll: :arrow: :D

It is no longer climbing the tires.. cause I guess I did what you recommended.... sheesh... and look ma :!: :roll: :shock: ... I can walk too all by myself.. but I can't read very well.... :roll: :roll: :oops: :roll: :lol:

I need to get some sleep or something... I get a problem running around in my head, and that is what I think about even when I am in la-la land..

Russell:

You could make something similar to the mounting bracket on the plow, minus the cushion springs. Take a piece of flat stock, drilled for bolting to the drawbar, then weld a piece of pipe on the rear of it, drill 2 holes through the siddes of the disk tounge, then slide a bolt through like a axles and away you go!! You will need x bracing of some sort to keep the disk from getting into the tires. Nice thing about that setup is you can leave the drawbar in the forward position after removing the plow and just reinstal the side bolts on the draw bar and bolt to the disk bracket.


Now that is what I mean... I think I can figure that out.. it is along the lines of what I was trying to come up with..


In my pic below you will see above the drawbar on the axle house is a bracket with a large hole with a slot cut in it. I made that for my plow chain(turned out i did't need it tho, due to long landside). you could make 2 similar brackets and bolt in same location for the side draft chains we recomended. That is just a piece of 1/4" flat stock with a large hole big enough for the chain to go through with a slot to catch between the links. I made that one on a mill but you could make them with a torch or drill and die grnder, etc... It is bent 45 degrees. These could be left on all the time if you didn't need those holes for someting else.


And that my friend is a good candidate for a how to make that article for the server...

You guys with these skills are the best information resource us not so skilled guys can get access to...

IH made a bracket similar to that one for precisely that purpose, but I have yet to find one to either buy or make a copy from..
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Postby Rudi » Mon May 01, 2006 10:50 pm

Well, Dad and I ended up spending a little quality time together today and played some more on the Disc Harrow project.

We ended up having to go to town to pick up a few items, but all in all it went well. To top it off, Em and her Mom made Crepes Rapee for lunch or as some of us may know them Kartoffel Puffer.... hmmm schmeck gut :!: :lol: 8) :lol: YUMMMMMMM :!: :D

Anyways here is what we did:

When we started working on modifying the pole and tongue, we discovered that there were bolts missing/broken/rusted into place that we had not noticed before. After a little judicious use of the grinder and the cut-off blade, we were able to start putting it together.

As you can see, we had to shorten the pole by 4" so that the bolts holding the pole to the frame could be accomodated as well as drilling new holes to keep the two piece pole together.

Image

We also got a pretty heavy duty hinge.. thought about using the hinge as a trial and error piece but it has turned out to be more than enough for the job at hand. Most of the weight as well as the torsion and deflection will be handled by the chains and will not impact the hinge at all. Seems the largest amount of stress on the hinge itself will be the rotating at the disc is lifted up or lowered.

Image

This pic shows the bracket I made to accomodate the fixed postition of the disc angle. We are thinking we may add another pair of adjustment holes, one fore and aft of the existing hole in the pole to allow for either greater or slightly lesser aggressiveness of the disc angle....

Image

Ron, you will be pleased to see we snagged your idea of the double pair of chains for lifting. Boy does this help a lot... smooth as silk.. and Ellie can raise the disc about a good foot off of the ground which is pretty good to my mind..

You can also see by the condition of the discs, that yup.. done tried em out.. unfortunately the ground by far is still too wet to adequately do a proper job. Another 2 or 3 weeks and it should be dry enough. Ellie did well and the discs worked very nicely... Dad was impressed and that is hard to do..

Image

As you can see, there are still a number of bolts that are rusted and basically useless.. which will have to be cut off and replaced. That will be another morning project sometime this week I hope.

Image

This was fun, and thanks guys for all the input. Without your help, this would not have been as fruitful or as much fun without the input.... and it is appreciated immensely.
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Postby 400lbsonacubseatspring » Mon May 01, 2006 11:25 pm

Rudi,

The "weak link" I see in your improvements, and I'm sure it will give you trouble in time, is that half-strap hinge at the mounting point.

The steel might be strong enough, but I bet the center pin isn't.

Keep an eye on that, because if your disc dismounts there while you're moving (and I speak from experience with my modified rig--I had a hitch bolt break), the result is that the tongue digs into the field, and the harrow comes up and hits you in back of the head.

While I suffered no injury from this, I was quite surprised, of course, and disentangling the disc from the mess of chains and cub is somewhat difficult for one person.

As an alternate, might I suggest some sort of single clevis, fitting between a pair of clevises, that you could attach with a hitch pin. This would surely be a much more robust solution.

This is only the advice of an insect, however.
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