Trying to save a Super C

Farmall C & Super C Tractors, 1948-1954

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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Fri Jan 25, 2013 5:56 pm

So got some numbers off the bearing inserts tonight.

Front Main bearing insert had the following numbers

IHC 77
360216 R1
STD 60

I also plastigage this bearing as well, I got 0.004.

I also took off the #3 cap and removed the Rod bearing insert, numbers found were

9 60 H24
FM 0.002 US
356306 R1

I wanted to plastigage the rear main bearing but looks like I'll need a crows foot of some sort to get to the bolts, unless I'm missing something.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eugene » Fri Jan 25, 2013 8:07 pm

Eric85 wrote:So got some numbers off the bearing inserts tonight. Front Main bearing insert: STD. 0.004 clearance.

#3 cap: 0.002. .005 clearance.
STD would indicate the front main journal is/was still standard size. .002 on the #3 rod bearing insert indicates that the journal has been turned/polished to .002" undersize.

Continue plastigaging all of the bearing journals and documenting the finds. Have you noticed that the plastigage is the same size squish or is one end narrower that the other?
I have an excuse. CRS.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Sat Jan 26, 2013 2:29 pm

I would say that one end was not as squished as the other on the center main bearing. I was going to do it again today with a longer piece of plastigage.

I plastigaged the other rod bearings.

#1 was 0.005
#2 was 0.004
#4 was 0.006

Here are some pics of the #2 bearing.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:46 am

I'm wondering if I should keep the bearings I have or if I should replace them.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Boss Hog » Sun Jan 27, 2013 10:52 am

I do not like seeing brass on a bearing they need to be replaced , I would mic them to get the correct size , also the crank may need to be turned.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eugene » Sun Jan 27, 2013 5:29 pm

OK. I really don't like the looks of the cranks shaft journal or parts of the crankshaft outside the journal.

We have not seen the valves and valve seats or the pistons and cylinder walls. We know there is or are stuck valves.

Just me and my opinion based only on photos and previous discussion. I would pull the engine, disassemble. Then take the disassembled engine to a machine shop to be measured, crankshaft polished or turned as needed, and the block boiled out. Block may require other machine work such as valve seats and guides replaced.

Second thought. Take the engine to a machine shop and have them disassemble, measure and provide you with a estimate for a complete rebuild or a short or long block.

And my last current thought. Some tractors are parts tractors, not worth the expense to rebuild. Cheaper to buy a tractor in field ready condition that the make the required repairs.
I have an excuse. CRS.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Mon Jan 28, 2013 9:47 am

Is there any way to get it running without removing the engine? Could I get new bearings ( same size of what I have on it now) and clean up the surfaces
of the crank shaft somehow. I used a micrometer on crankshaft after removing #4 bearing, it seemed ok.

If I could do that I would still pull the pistons out and clean the cylinder walls and install new rings.

Some people have told me to try and run it as is, but I want to do things right and learn about engines and how to work on them.
Pulling the engine and taking it to a machine shop would all be a first for me.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby outdoors4evr » Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:05 am

That crank needs cleaned up (polished) or better yet turned down.

If you want a tractor to live another 50 years, do the complete teardown. You can either pull the crank and send it out to be turned or have a machine shop do it. The machine shop can also do the cylinder walls and valve job. If you want the experience of doing the work that is fine, but it will likely cost the same.

If you are just wanting to get it running and sell it, then just polish it up, replace the bearings and get it saleable.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Matt Kirsch » Mon Jan 28, 2013 4:32 pm

The engine is in no immediate danger of major catastrophe. You could put it back together and make it run, but you're really not going to want to put it to work. It doesn't have much life left in it.

I know the guys are adamant about doing it "right" but there are other options...

If you can figure out that the journals aren't too "egg-shaped" you can clean them up with some crocus cloth (I think) and put new bearings in. Put the SAME bearings in new as what came out. Don't try to put in undersize bearings.

Another step up, you could also just have the crankshaft done, and put in new bearings.

None of these are real great options, but they are options. Ideally you want to do a complete rebuild of the engine at this phase, but sometime that isn't in the cards...

Dad changed out the main and rod bearings in the Super M about 35 years ago. It had a light rod knock IIRC. He just dropped the pan, rolled out the old bearings, maybe polished the journals up a little bit with crocus cloth, and rolled in the new. That tractor is still going strong to this day. Your mileage may vary.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eugene » Mon Jan 28, 2013 5:50 pm

Matt Kirsch wrote:The engine is in no immediate danger of major catastrophe. You could put it back together and make it run.
True statement. Enough time and money we can rebuild the tractor.

However, the only information we have Eric85's input. So far we know the engine needs new rod and main bearings, valves are stuck, push rods bent. We have no information on pistons, cylinder walls/sleeves, ignition, carburetor, oil pump, missing parts, tire condition, etc., etc.. It's gonna take time and money,perhaps a lot of money, just to get the tractor running.

Question is, is the tractor worth rebuilding?

Suggestions. Have an experienced tractor mechanic give the machine the once over. Do not purchase any parts for the tractor until you have a good idea of what it's going to take to put it into good working order.
I have an excuse. CRS.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Matt Kirsch » Tue Jan 29, 2013 1:05 pm

I'm sayin' he can probably get it running without putting another dime in it.

Those bearings have a few RPM's left in them.
Valves can be freed up with kroil and a small hammer.
Pushrods can be straightened.

I'll bet she's got enough compression to fire.

To see what I mean, look up the ElderlyIron channel on youtube and watch the series on the 389 engine resurrection. That engine went from being an upside-down lump sitting in the back of an old derilict truck with low compression and stuck valves, to a fire-breathing beast. All he had in it was his time and some oil.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:13 am

Thanks for all the responses.

Right now I don’t have the tractor in a good spot to split it and remove the engine.
Here is what I’m thinking now.
If I can clean / polish up the crankshaft with oil and crocus cloth, taking my time and being very careful. Then getting new same size bearings as I have now and installing them.

I then would pull out the pistons and polish the cylinder walls, which only two have slight surface rust. Then install new rings on pistons.

Then I would clean up the head some how and get all the valves working again. I did remove the valve that was the most stuck and using my brass brush from my rifle cleaning kit and some oil in the valve guild it cleaned up nicely. The valve stem was still shinny and a rag with oil on it was all it needed.
I would continue to do this on the rest of them, but I’m thinking of getting some valve grinding compound to use on them.

If I can do these three things then I would put it back together, rebuild the carb, get new plug wires, check the cap and rotor, and give it a try.

Plus by going through it like this I would learn a lot, remember this is all fairly new to me.

Question, what is the worst that could happen? What do I have to lose by trying it like this? The engine wouldn’t sound right and I would have to rebuild it. Which by next winter I might want to do anyway and I’ll be in a much better spot.

The ElderlyIron channel on u tube is great. What he does with the 389 is impressive and I learned a lot by watching the videos. I was surprised that he didn’t drop the oil pan on it to at least inspect some things. But he does get it running pretty good.

Tires on this tractor don’t seem that bad, rear ones look almost new and have been holding air. The front tires have some weather cracks but I’ve only had to put air in them once every 5 or 6 days.
The fenders and sheet metal are good.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby outdoors4evr » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:24 am

If you are going to have the crank out, turning it only costs $120.00. I just did my tractor last year.
You are already spending money on the new rod and main bearings, might as well spend the money to have the crank turned to the right size and not have to monkey with it (or worry about it) for 30 more years.

Turning a crank is money well spent on a tractor you are planning to keep.

I can understand not wanting to bore it if it measures ok with the new rings. That's a big cost when you have to purchase oversized pistons.
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eric85 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 10:59 am

I wasn't going to have the crank out.
I thought I would have to spilt the tractor to get the crank out or am I wrong?
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Re: Trying to save a Super C

Postby Eugene » Wed Jan 30, 2013 2:51 pm

Eric85 wrote:I wasn't going to have the crank out. I thought I would have to split the tractor to get the crank out or am I wrong?
Not wrong. But if you remove and disassemble the engine you can have all the parts measured, inspected, and the block boiled out.
Eric85 wrote:If I can clean / polish up the crankshaft with oil and crocus cloth, taking my time and being very careful. Then getting new same size bearings as I have now and installing them.

I then would pull out the pistons and polish the cylinder walls, which only two have slight surface rust. Then install new rings on pistons.
Contact the tractor parts dealers advertising on the internet. Ask for their free parts catalogs. Use the catalogs as a resource for estimating parts prices.

Using a 2010 Valu-Bilt catalog a a reference, the rod and main bearing set, depending on sizes, was around $150-. Gasket set $85-. Piston sleeve set $490-. Ring set $130-.

Just my opinion. I wouldn't spend $400 or more dollars for parts to guess and piecemeal an engine together just to hear it run.
I have an excuse. CRS.
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