amp guage discharge

Farmall M, Super M, 400, 450 & 560 Tractors, 1939-1963

Moderator: Team Cub

Forum rules
Notice: For sale and wanted posts are not allowed in this forum. Please use our free classifieds or one of our site sponsors for your tractor and parts needs.

amp guage discharge

Postby jiw01 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:58 pm

i have a ih farmall 400,charged the battery yesterday and started it up.noticed that the amp guage is showing discharge even at high rpm.started doing some cleaning of termimals,battery,starter, generator,i don't think the generator is working.it has a 12 volt battery that is positive ground,i called a ih dealer and was told this is normal on the early 400s.i am thinking of replacing generator with a alternator is there a web site that i can go to to give me proper instructions to do this converson? is it possible to change this with the positive ground?and how much wiring do i have to change?i am thinking it would be less expensive then having the generator and volt regulator replaced.any help from this group is good help.thank you,john
jiw01
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:10 pm
Zip Code: 62640

Re: amp guage discharge

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:48 pm

before you start throwing money at it, follow this trouble shooting chart.

Image
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government
to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the
government lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." Patrick Henry
User avatar
John *.?-!.* cub owner
Team Cub Guide
Team Cub Guide
 
Posts: 19101
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:09 pm
Location: Mo, Potosi
Zip Code: 63664
Tractors Owned: 47, 48, 49 cub plus Wagner loader & other attachments. 41 Farmall H.

Re: amp guage discharge

Postby Dusti Snider » Sun Jun 03, 2012 8:54 pm

Ground the field termianl on the generator and see if it charges, that'll tell you whether the VR is bad or the generator. Your tractor should be 6volt. Has it already been converted?

Image

Under edit...John typoes faster than I do :)
Image

Member IHCC Chapter 37 & 42 - North Carolina
User avatar
Dusti Snider
501 Club
501 Club
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:10 am
Location: Mercer County, West Virginia
Zip Code: 24740
Tractors Owned: 1951 Farmall "M" - Restored
1949 Farmall Cub - Original "Blue Ribbon Reconditioned"
1934 Farmall F-12
1929 Farmall Regular
1956 Ford 640
1967 John Deere 112H
1973 John Deere 140H3
1985 John Deere 420
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: amp guage discharge

Postby jiw01 » Sun Jun 03, 2012 9:33 pm

john,dusti thank you for your responce.i will follow these instructions in the morning.dusti,as much as i know from the preveious owner he told me it was 12 volt when he got it,also the ih dealer said the early 400s were 12 volt positive ground,but when i had the generator off to clean braskets i noticed some numbers on it,can't remember them all but there is a 6 space 71.does that tell me 6 volt? thanks again
jiw01
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:10 pm
Zip Code: 62640

Re: amp guage discharge

Postby Jim Becker » Sun Jun 03, 2012 10:01 pm

Some of the early 2-volt IH tractors were positive ground. But I believe all gas powered 400s came from the factory with 6-volt. The 450s came 12, maybe not all of them.

The original generator was 1100531. The tag should be black (12-volt were red). The numbers stamped into it should be 1100531, followed by a few spaces, followed by a date code of digit, letter, digit, digit. The first digit is the last of the year, the letter is the month, the last 2 digits are the day of the month. So 5C21 would be March 21, 1955. Letter I was not used so J=September . . .

Your generator may have been changed out. Rebuilders tend to take a one-size-fits-all approach.
User avatar
Jim Becker
Team Cub
Team Cub
 
Posts: 11851
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:14 pm
Location: TX/MN
Zip Code: 75048
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: amp guage discharge

Postby jiw01 » Mon Jun 04, 2012 8:18 am

good morning jim,did not know that there was a 2 volt system,good to know.so if the 400s were 6 volt and mine was changed to 12 volt then should it be negative ground?this is what is confusing,also i checked the numbers on the generator.1100305 then under that 6 space(there is no letter)71.if i was to turn the battery to neg ground would that cause any problems ? how can i test the generator off the tractor?thank you,john
jiw01
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:10 pm
Zip Code: 62640

Re: amp guage discharge

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:03 am

jiw01 wrote:good morning jim,did not know that there was a 2 volt system
I believe that was a typo, and should have been 12 volts, not 2. A 2 volt system would require battery cables about half the size of your arm.

You can get rough test off the tractor by connecting 12 volts to the A terminal and grounding the F. It should run like an electric motor, though not real fast.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government
to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the
government lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." Patrick Henry
User avatar
John *.?-!.* cub owner
Team Cub Guide
Team Cub Guide
 
Posts: 19101
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:09 pm
Location: Mo, Potosi
Zip Code: 63664
Tractors Owned: 47, 48, 49 cub plus Wagner loader & other attachments. 41 Farmall H.

Re: amp guage discharge

Postby Jim Becker » Mon Jun 04, 2012 9:26 am

According to the book, that is a 12-volt generator. It was used on the 450 starting with serial number 11084. Prior to that Diesels and LPs were 12-volt but used a different generator. A typical Delco Generator tag looks like this (picture borrowed from the Cadillac-LaSalle website, ignore the question marks). I don't know about your "6 71" stamps, unless it was added by a rebuilder.
Image

The 400/450, even in 12-volt, were positive ground systems. For the most part, simple generator systems don't care much* which way they are grounded. Just polarize the generator after installing the battery.

A couple simple generator checks can be done off the tractor, don't guarantee completely proper operation. First, I'd look at the brushes to see if there is reasonable chance it works. Take the band off if there is one or look in through the end frame. If that looks OK, Try a motoring over test with a good battery.
1) Attach a ground lead from the battery to the generator frame.
2) Ground the F terminal.
3) Attach a hot lead to the A terminal. Generator should motor over.
4) Remove the ground from the F terminal. Generator should speed up.

* Original regulators used contact material based on polarity and last longer if used properly. Solid state electronics (transistor radios, breakerless ignitions, etc.) depend on specific polarity.
User avatar
Jim Becker
Team Cub
Team Cub
 
Posts: 11851
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:14 pm
Location: TX/MN
Zip Code: 75048
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: amp guage discharge

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Mon Jun 04, 2012 12:41 pm

To answer the part about the alternator, positive ground 12 volt alternators are rare, if they even exist. But to change to negative ground merely involves reversing the wires on the amp meter. Here is a link to wiring diagram for converting H or M to alternator, the wiring on your 400 should be similar. You will have to make your own mounting brackets.
http://s101.photobucket.com/albums/m46/ ... _22_08.gif
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government
to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the
government lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." Patrick Henry
User avatar
John *.?-!.* cub owner
Team Cub Guide
Team Cub Guide
 
Posts: 19101
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:09 pm
Location: Mo, Potosi
Zip Code: 63664
Tractors Owned: 47, 48, 49 cub plus Wagner loader & other attachments. 41 Farmall H.

Re: amp guage discharge

Postby Dusti Snider » Mon Jun 04, 2012 1:03 pm

John *.?-!.* cub owner wrote:To answer the part about the alternator, positive ground 12 volt alternators are rare, if they even exist. But to change to negative ground merely involves reversing the wires on the amp meter. Here is a link to wiring diagram for converting H or M to alternator, the wiring on your 400 should be similar. You will have to make your own mounting brackets.
http://s101.photobucket.com/albums/m46/ ... _22_08.gif


Don't forget to swap the wires on the ignition coil...
Image

Member IHCC Chapter 37 & 42 - North Carolina
User avatar
Dusti Snider
501 Club
501 Club
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:10 am
Location: Mercer County, West Virginia
Zip Code: 24740
Tractors Owned: 1951 Farmall "M" - Restored
1949 Farmall Cub - Original "Blue Ribbon Reconditioned"
1934 Farmall F-12
1929 Farmall Regular
1956 Ford 640
1967 John Deere 112H
1973 John Deere 140H3
1985 John Deere 420
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: amp guage discharge

Postby jiw01 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:56 am

jim, john,again thank you for the valuable information.i tryed all all tests,its the generator so leaning toards the alternator idea.sorry for the slow responce, got torn away form this project to retreave a crying cub longing for my ownership,whitch brings up another question.this cub has a tag, little hard to read,i see #10452 then below is 1800.where can i find it's year of production? also it has a 8 volt battery,on whitch setting do i use to charge,12 or 6 volt?
jiw01
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:10 pm
Zip Code: 62640

Re: amp guage discharge

Postby Dusti Snider » Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:06 pm

Your Cub is a late '47 model, the first year built. 1800 is the engine rated RPM's. The 8 volts battery should be charged on 6 volt.

I think you'll be very pleased with the alternator on your 400.
Image

Member IHCC Chapter 37 & 42 - North Carolina
User avatar
Dusti Snider
501 Club
501 Club
 
Posts: 589
Joined: Tue Feb 04, 2003 9:10 am
Location: Mercer County, West Virginia
Zip Code: 24740
Tractors Owned: 1951 Farmall "M" - Restored
1949 Farmall Cub - Original "Blue Ribbon Reconditioned"
1934 Farmall F-12
1929 Farmall Regular
1956 Ford 640
1967 John Deere 112H
1973 John Deere 140H3
1985 John Deere 420
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: amp guage discharge

Postby jiw01 » Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:53 am

dusti,thank you for reply and i am sorry i did not mention you in the last thank you's.i'm sure there will be a bunch more questions as time goes on.thanks again to you all.johnny
jiw01
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2012 3:10 pm
Zip Code: 62640

Re: amp guage discharge

Postby klyant » Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:05 am

I have never seen a 6 volt 400 around here. All have been 12 volt postive ground.Most tractors in the 40's and 50's were postive grounded. Voltage regulators give far more trouble than generators. I had to buy 5 regulators for a Case 930 before i got one that worked!
klyant
Cub Star
Cub Star
 
Posts: 72
Joined: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:55 pm
Location: nebraska


Return to Farmall M, Super M, 400, 450, & 560

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests