Katrina (HELL)

[ljw]

Rudi and Pat, et al,,
I really was interested in reading your threads.It's an amazing thing about a democracy in that 2 people can have differing opinions and at the same time both be right. And most important, being able to express those opinions. I don't really know when looting goes beyond providing for ones family and beginning to break the law. We must rely on the justice system to decide this issue. I will say though, that blind justice often appears to be giving way to special interests and political correctness. I really wish that President Bush could articulate his thoughts and ideas more effectively. Because I believe he has many good ideas. The reality is that nowadays we elect people to office having charismatic abilities and telling people what they want hear instead of building a platform consisting of planks for the common good.of all people in the nation. But we created this environment and we must wrestle with it until it improves. Rudi mentioned Ms. Pelosi, and I have never heard anything she has said that made any sense or shows that she can function as a high level political figure. My major fault with Bush is that he does a knee jerk reaction to the opposing party and liberal media and over compensates to counter the criticism. Mr. Bush they won't like you no matter what you do. Yesterday they stated that $2,000 debit cards are being issued to the adult refugees. Now I realize that you can't paint everybody with the same brush, but I think that I read that the majority of refugees don't have jobs and are on the public account. But I have rental property in what could be called low income housing areas and I rent to black and whites that are on subsidied housing. I have good renters, but I am in the neigborhoods often and I interact with many of the residents. Reality. Many have alcohol and/or drug dependencies. Most of the rest have minimal budget abilities. Many are broke within a week of receiving their checks. I shudder to think of how much of this money is going to be used to buy these iddictive substances. When I first started renting to section 8 people I rented to a mentally ill couple. God bless them, they can't help it. When I found out that they had problems in other areas, I went to the section 8 people and asked who were their counselers. They looked at me like I was crazy. What an insane question to ask. Instead of fixing the problem throw more money. But my pockets are that deep. What I am saying may not be polictically correct and that I am insensitive to poor people. But I believe that when the government tells these that they are entitled to unlimited assistance with, rather than responsible for, their well being, the worst disservice of all is being done to these people. They are being robbed of their right to achieve their own destiny. Thank you very much. Larry

[Harold R]

ljw, well said.

Pat and Rudi, all good points. Not much debate during normal times.
However, what is at debate (?) is citizen's rights during the envokation of Marshall Law. I would have to do more research to see just what is affected. Wish I had more time today.

[Joker555]

Glad to see all you guys are in good spirits about all that is going on.
Thanks to all the people who are reaching out to help total strangers of different race and nationality.
From coast to coast we have folks here helping everyone.Some in it for the money and some through pure humanitarian compassion.
The couple I saw on the news who has taken in a family of 5 or 6 Black folks in their small 2 bedroom apartment(I think It was an apartment),is the kind of people that keep this country going.
The GOVERNMENT does what it can for $$$ for this situation,but does not do anything like these kind hearted people that do the good deed go to Heaven type.
May God bless all that are trying to stay in their homes till the end,some till the death unless her pets go along with her @ the same time.
She even wrote DNR in black permanent marker on her.

Carm,all is well with us here in HOUMA.Planes are flyin everyday and helicopter travel is as busy as it was back in the oil boom days.Unfortunately for different reasons.
We'll get back on our feet and become a better community in the end.
Talk @ ya'll later

[Carm]

Christian, good to hear you are up and runnning. Thanks for keeping in touch.

[Lurker Carl]

Glad to hear y'all are doing OK.

There is talk of converting ex-Fort Ritchie in western Maryland into a relocation center for NO refugees. Ft Ritchie closed as a result of the last BRAC in 1995 and has been vacant since the Army moved out.

[Rudi]

Pat:

Well put.

I guess I sometimes let some of my feelings carry me away. For years after I retired from the military, I was involved with apprenticeship and retraining through the provincial government. I got a little help with their salaries, they got learnin... Em and I discussed at length a program that we were approached by the province to enrol in.... retraining/re-integration of low and medium secruity parolee's. Some of them were pretty good, some not so hot. But I will say this, they all wanted a second chance. And if I was healthy enough to still have my business, I would still be doing it. It is worthwhile and it does work in many cases, but again not all.

I have no problem with a second chance, or even a third chance, however there are a few places that I draw the line..

1. Looters - valid point guys, and one Em has driven home and one I agree with -- when faced with a natural disaster, many parents will go to great lengths and do things they would never normally do in a normal situation. They could and in this case did break into stores to get food for their kids.

That is not ok but it is understandable... Em and I both agree... however, we would have gone one step further. We would have left our name, address and other pertinent info, with a promise to make good for what we borrowed at the time, as soon as we could get access to our bank and such. IT STILL IS NOT RIGHT - however, I would if I had to, to feed my kids.

As far as taking TV's, stereos, tires and all kinds of other stuff -- it is JUST PLAIN STEALING - period. And for that they deserve to be punished. Even if it is just their own conscience that will bother them until they do the right thing, fine. But, it is stealing and they are responsible for their actions. btw, these people were caught on camera doing it - live on CNN and other networks, they admitted to it, they were proud of it.... something wrong there... and just a thought... even though this was commited in the US, I will be paying for these crimes. Stealing costs companies billions every year. Those costs have to be recovered. So, I get to pay higher costs because some joker wants something for nothing. Whether it is somebody in the US, Canada or Europe - WE ALL pay for it in increased costs. That isn't right.

As for the rest of the scum... and these are the ones I was alluding to and not those trying to feed their families, well I have very strong feelings.

2. If you KILL someone intentionally, and not to protect your own life, then you are a criminal and you must be punished. The Lord sayeth ' Thou shalt not Kill -- or as a better translation of the old Hebrew - Murder".

3. If you kidnap, abduct. rape, abuse or in any way harm a child, you are a criminal and you must be punished.

4. If you kidnap, abduct, rape or abuse a woman, in any way, you are a criminal and you must be punished.

5. If you traffic in illegal substances, you are a criminal and you must be punished.

6. If you commit terrorism, you are a criminal and you must be punished.

7. If you commit armed robbery etc., then you are a criminal, and you must be punished.

Now, there are varying degrees of punishment.

Do I believe in the 3 strikes you are out? Not a chance. That is idiotic.. 3 speeding tickets and you go to prison? Not! Rob a store 3 times and you go to prison for life - no - a little harsh. But you MUST pay for your crimes, if you break societies laws, then you must be punished. If you break God's laws, you must be punished. This is the way the world works.

There are different approaches. Some work and some don't work so well.

1. Community sentencing and alternative justice - does work in some areas.
2. Tribal councils - native justice through a healing circle does work. Surprisingly it works very well, and it is something we should look at as an alternative.
3. Community service - definitely should be used in non-violent offenders sentencing as well as white collar crimes etc. People must become aware of just who it is they are hurting.

The MAN, just doesn't exist, it was a cop out in the 60's and 70's. it is a cop out now and it will always be a cop out.

Got a question? Do you think John Fitzgerald Kennedy would have become President of the United States and his brother Robert F. Kennedy would have become the Attorney General, if their father Joseph Patrick Kennedy has been caught and found guilty of rum running back in the 30's??? That was illegal, (see item #5 above) and many people went to jail for it. The only ones who didn't were the ones who paid of the right people, made sure that the juice was passed around. This is real history... factual and documented. JP was one of the most successful of the rum runners between Canada/ Newfoundland and the US..

Pat, what you have done with that young man is commendable, however, it doesn't always work. In his case it has, and I would expect that the last 2 years must be taken into consideration during his sentencing.. however, that does not abrogate his obligation to society, to those he hurt and most of all, to himself. Remember, punishment is not only a metteing out of penance, but it is also meant to invoke personal responsibility for ones actions.

People can and do make mistakes, we all do, and sometimes some of us make major blunders that will follow us for the rest of our lives. But do we have the right to expect a slap on the wrist and a don't ever do that again? NO, we must accept responsibility for our actions, that is what makes us civilized. That is what makes democracy safe.

Hey, I live in an area where the crime rate is almost non-existant. I think we have had 2 homicides in the last year and a half. We have a few B&E's, a couple smash and grabs and minor stuff like that. We are relatively crime free. However, the biggest criminal element that we have are drug traffickers.. everything from weed, hash, oils to PCP, Dillaudid, Heroin, Oxy-contin and all the inbetween stuff. We just had a bust for over $800,000.00 US in marijuana plants. These jokers need to go to jail for a very long time.

Do I believe that one should go to prison for tokin on a joint. No, the only ones they are harming are themselves. Do I believe that one should go to jail for a very long time for being a trafficker? You Betcha bottom dollar I do. These people are criminals. They live off the avails of crime.

Do I believe that prostitution is a crime? No, I am more European in that regard.. also, it is the worlds oldest profession. I believe that they do provide a requirement and whilst they are doing so, then there is likely less rapes etc. Do I believe that a pimp belongs in prison - you betcha bottom dollar I do, mostly cause these guys really are scum... they are the dregs of society...

But that is just my opinion...don';t get me started on prison wages or welfare either... I gots me pretty strong ideas on that too... but it all goes back to responsibility...

one last comment -- I take very seriously the Gospels and I am a devotee of the parables about Calvary. When Christ was crucified, he was crucified with 2 criminals; -- murderers. Barabas was repentant and Christ forgave him and promised him eternal life. The other, laughed and belittled Barabas and Christ -- I think he got Life in Hell.... something to live by I think....and it applies to all of us.

Guys, thanks for letting me once again mount my

Carm, I hope you got the laptop...

I really enjoy these types of discussions. They can be very thought provoking.

[Patbretagne]

I don't want to be the one "having the last word", please keep the discussion going.
May I though just confirm one thing?
When I commented on your post Rudi, I did not say that people should not be punished, I am quite happy that all crime should be punished. It is the "Lock em up, throw away the key" attitude that I find hard to accept.
Convicted criminals are still human beings and should be treated as such.
Fortunately we do not punish people by killing them over here, fortunately. There have been several cases where someone in for life has after many years been found to be inocent and freed, it is not possible to free someone from death.
The young person with whom I have been working has repented and changed BECAUSE of his 9 months preventative. He may have to go back in again, I hope not because there is the possibility that he could get very bitter and with the violent life and hard nfluences that often are found in prison he could get shot right back, perhaps further into crime than when he was picked up 3 years ago. Yes I agree he has broken the law and he deserves to be punished. Not mitigating at all the situation but his young life was not all that easy, 6 brothers and sisters all with different fathers, moving from place to place, lack of parental control, lack of love, I could extand the list, these do make for extenuating circumstances, a great inferiority complex coupled with the power that he got, even though he hasn't profited from his crime, a very generous person at the same time, he never was in it for the cash, just recognition.
Keep the comments coming whilst at the same time remembering that there are thousands of people down there who havn't a roof to cover them, they are in sports centres etc scattered many miles from their homes.
Another tack, who is going to pay for putting all these lives back to normal, the state, the country, insurance??? Already in Europe we have been told that as a result of the Katrina our insurance policies will rise next year. But just imagine the scale of claims, policies lost, insurance offices lost, wow it is inconceivable. Who will rebuild, there certainly will be the need for constructors, let's hope not profiteers.
One could go on, eh! best wishes to all,
Pat-

[Eugene]

Who is going to pay for all of the damage? US taxpayers for the most part. FEMA will come in and provide a hugh chunk of money to property owners. There have been instances where the same property has been damaged or destroyed 3 or 4 times and rebuilt with taxpayer funds.

Insurance rates. Announced this morning, the insurance rates in Missouri would most likely not increase. Local radio talk show.

The hurricane damage is going to cause a building/construction boom lasting for years. I was looking at purchasing stock in a construction company (Matrix). The day after Katrina the price of that stock jumped up 1/3.

More and more information on the timing of hurricane events come out. Missouri Task Force 1, an urban search and rescue unit, was deployed to the western side of the anticipated hurricane prior to Katrina hitting New Orleans. Task Force 1 is part of the Boone County Fire District. The Commander of the unit gave a lengthy interview yesterday. To summarize, Task Force 1 and the other USR units were initially over whelmed.

My personal opinion is that with a few exceptions. The US state and federal governments responded to the best of their abilities.

Eugene

[Harold R]

Here's the verbage I was looking for.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martial_law

After reading, one shouldn't be surprised to see the military walking the streets in enforcement rolls, as well as S&R. The citizens rights are ruduced somewhat. I feel sure that The Federal Gov. is very hesitant to invoke this, but never the less.....it's done. I'm not real sure those Americans residing in New Orleans understand what happens when placed under Marshall law.
As far as blame......look no farther than the state government of Louisiana. Bush's mistake was assuming they had their act together.
Crime and punishment is an age-old debate that is much politicized<SP>. I have an opinion like everybody else. My kids know that opinion......and that alone is my focus for now, as it's a full time job.

[Rudi]

Harold:

I had been thinking on adding comments, but all I can say is :

Crime and punishment is an age-old debate that is much politicized<SP>. I have an opinion like everybody else. My kids know that opinion......and that alone is my focus for now, as it's a full time job.

Well said

If we can pass to our kids our values hopefully in time this world will become a better place.

[Eugene]

Rudi:

Saw on the TV news that a Canadian Search and Resuce Unit was the first assistance to arrive in one of the smaller towns in the hurricane affected area. Assistance is arriving and has arrived from other countries.

Thank you and your country.

Eugene

[Rudi]

Eugene:

Yeah I saw that and I read in our papers how President Bush openly thanked Canada up front - numero uno - for what we/our country has done. We are as I have said countless times, not only allies, but friends and family. We are all in this together, both the US and Canada and we NEED to stick together -- both of us.

Thanks for pointing it out, it is appreciated.



One other thing though.. and I thought that this typified the point many of us have been trying to make for the last couple of years. Perceptions are formed by the information we are fed. Journalists - the 5th Estate are supposed to be fair and even aribiters of events. They are not to foment antagonism or distrust, but to simply report the facts as they are without undue embellishment.

FOX News -- interviewed Ambassador Frank McKenna (my former premier) and in the interview was remarking on how Canada was willing and EAGER to help no matter what our difficulties in some areas are.. which the Ambassador was quick to remark positively on. However at the end of the interview, the journalist who was sitting in for the regular host Bill whatsitsname who is the king of Anti-Canadian sentiment on FOX.. asked this:

This is paraphrased as I do not have the article in front of my.

Mr. Ambassador, is Canada just not trying to make President Bush and we Americans look bad by being the first to arrive? (In whatever town/parish it was)

This is what we mean when we talk about the stupidity and the journalistic immorality that is rampant in modern media....

Thankfully Ambassador McKenna replied without missing a beat - Nope, Canada just wants to help her family and friends.

[ljw]

Rudi,
I saw that interview, also. It never occurred to me that being there first solely to embarrass someone could possibly have been a motive. As I watched John Gibson say that, I was hoping that it was a little tongue in cheek, I wanted it to be, anyway. If it wasn't, then it was stupid and mean spirited, to say the least. Everybody wants the big ratings and will do almost anything to get them. I enjoy watching O'Reilly because he is provocative and will say things to get a reaction. But he is by no means always accurate in his statements. As a matter of fact, he often seems to be a little too pious for my liking. In the evenings while resting I enjoy listening to objective dialogue to stimulate my pea brain. But I can't listen to news programs that berate my country, which I realize is not perfect. But it's been awfully good to me. Nor have I ever watched a reality show. So although Fox News doesn't reflect my opinions completely, I don't think any show can do that. Everybody that I talk to feels that Canada has been, and always will be, friends with your southern neighbors. We are just too much the same in so many ways. Don't get offended! Larry

[jim turner]

well here in Belton Mo they have re-opened Richards Gabauer Air Force Base that has been closed for a long time and are now housing 1600 evacuees from Katrina My Daughter teaches school and has some of the kids enrolled already and they are doing just great

[Rudi]

Larry:

I really never get offended, at least no by my friends. We may have differences of opinion, but then again so do Em and I... Guess who wins

I do like however, lettin my friends and my family know how I feel about things..

And you know what

Even though I may post the occassional response on other forums -- I think maybe 2 or 3 in the past year... about stuff like this -- I usually post em here.

Why

Because my friends are here That is why I have yet to find one single solitary person here who I cannot call a friend in one form or another. You all have been good to me, like family is to family, and that is what makes this forum so special. We can discuss, query, comment and ellicit responses and pretty much do so knowing that offense, diatribe and persnickettyness will not be taken/delivered or passed on.

Amazing isn't it

This is what makes this forum so great... all the wonderful people who live here with me

Jim:

that is what they are going to need to do. Open up all the old bases with housing etc., fixem up, loadem up with people, then turn those bases into REAL communities with business, manufacturing the whole nine yards. That is how Katrina can benefit the whole country.

In time New Orleans will be able to be called home again to many people, but if there is one thing we North Americans should have learned in the last 420 years is that we are survivors and we can recover. We shall perservere.