Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:07 pm

I don't where the Vega engine tooling went. You'd think Vega would eclipse Edsel as a synonym for failure. GM used the same aluminum for the bore as the block.

Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:22 pm

Now do any of you think there could an issue with burning valves or the such from using this fuel. Thats the scare tactic some are giving me. I know aircraft valves are sodium filled to protect from that but I'm not sure the engines I've used it in are running any hotter than they normally do.


Bill,

Now you're getting somewhere. If advancing the timing too far can't destroy your valves, convert to an aircraft carburetor so you can lean it enough to do so. You do know that's the reason for the sodium filled valves in light aircraft? That will certainly eliminate the plug fouling problem.

Tue Apr 12, 2005 12:37 pm

WKPoor - You have radically altered the operating parameters of your engine. What you have done is redesigned the combustion chamber but you haven't redesigned the cam, ignition, carburetion, manifolds and head accordingly meet to the increased demand. No wonder it won't run on pump fuel. You're expecting chemistry to fix engineering problems and blaming the chemist. Once you start altering stock components, you have to alter just about everything to match or exceed the new parameters to get the performance increase.


Luker- I did change the carb, intake. There aren't many cam choices unless I really want to dump in a lot of money. Most of the pullers around here are running stock cams so I didn't see the need to change either. The ignition is next so I'm on that.

George- In A&P school ( if my memory serves me right) The sodium valves allow better heat transfer so they run cooler. I've boxes full of manuals ( I haven't looked at in years) around here that probably go into great detail about the sodium valves. A buddy of mine that I went to A&P school with worked at Clydesdale for about 12yrs building engines and was factory trained. When I'm curious I call him, he knows every nut, bolt and part in Lycomings and Continentals.

Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:26 pm

WKPoor wrote:
WKPoor - You have radically altered the operating parameters of your engine. What you have done is redesigned the combustion chamber but you haven't redesigned the cam, ignition, carburetion, manifolds and head accordingly meet to the increased demand. No wonder it won't run on pump fuel. You're expecting chemistry to fix engineering problems and blaming the chemist. Once you start altering stock components, you have to alter just about everything to match or exceed the new parameters to get the performance increase.


Luker- I did change the carb, intake. There aren't many cam choices unless I really want to dump in a lot of money. Most of the pullers around here are running stock cams so I didn't see the need to change either. The ignition is next so I'm on that.

George- In A&P school ( if my memory serves me right) The sodium valves allow better heat transfer so they run cooler. I've boxes full of manuals ( I haven't looked at in years) around here that probably go into great detail about the sodium valves. A buddy of mine that I went to A&P school with worked at Clydesdale for about 12yrs building engines and was factory trained. When I'm curious I call him, he knows every nut, bolt and part in Lycomings and Continentals.


Bill,

You really need to get the manuals out and read and understand them. It will keep you from spinning your wheels. Of course the sodium is to cool the valves. It helps move the heat from the head to the stem where it can travel through the guide and out. The reason for overheating in the first place is too lean a mixture (pilot error)... the mixture is ordinarily made too rich on purpose so the heat of evaporation partly cools the engine... mostly the valves.

The mixture has to be adjustable to compensate for altitude. As the density altitude increases there is less air to go with a given qualtity of fuel, so the mixture must be leaned out. The procedure for leaning is to lean for maximum RPM and then RICHEN for a given RPM drop (usually about 50 RPM). Of course you learned all that in A&P school. :D

I arrived on this earth about 1/2 block from the Clydesdale plant in Clyde, OH. They built fire trucks. (Different Clydesdale, I know, now Whirlpool Corp.)

Tue Apr 12, 2005 1:28 pm

Lurker Carl wrote:I don't where the Vega engine tooling went. You'd think Vega would eclipse Edsel as a synonym for failure. GM used the same aluminum for the bore as the block.


L.C.,

I HOPE the Vega tooling went to the scrap heap. I meant the 215 went to Brazil.

Tue Apr 12, 2005 2:05 pm

I saw a Vega with a big block in it torque the body to where the doors wouldn't open. Cheap...cheap...cheap.

At least we now know why WK's H won't run on pump gas. What a relief. I couldn't figure out. LOL :lol: :lol: :lol: 8)

Tue Apr 12, 2005 3:20 pm

George- I talked to Rick down it the General hanger and he told me the main reason for sodium valves is to keep them from breaking at the stem. Most pilots run too rich on the ground let alone in the air.

Now for the lesson in carb mixture adjustment- your are really getting back to basics now. If I didn't know that I wouldn't have passed my Powerplant test or my single engine land pilots license. We must not be on the same page if we are discussing density altitude and mixture adjustment. Hopefully we well get to know one another better in June.

Tue Apr 12, 2005 8:57 pm

George, you'll be happy know the heart of the 215 is still alive and well on both sides of the pond. Mighty good for a 45 year old design it this day and age.

GM stopped building the 215 V8 in 1963 due to high production costs. They make back their original investment during the 3 years they built it, but it was much cheaper to use cast iron. The replacement V8 is essentially an iron version of the aluminum engine and it became the workhorse V8 as compact cars became less compact until the gas crunch of the early 1970s. This cast iron version of the 215 is defunct.

The British auto maker Rover bought the 215 tooling from GM in mid 1960's, introduced some structural reinforcements to the block and immediately began making engines for Land Rover and others. It even appeared in the Triumph TR8. Rover has made a continuous effort to improve the design and is still building it - but no longer in the 215 cid size. This engine has quite a following with the gear heads in Britian looking to hop up their Land Rovers or shoe horn them into MGs and other British marques. That makes for a plentiful supply of parts and pieces, both stock and aftermarket.

The Buick V6 was also built using the same basic design, minus 2 cylinders. The V6 tooling was sold to Kaiser-Jeep in the late 1960's, only to be bought back in the early 1970's to help rescue the Vega mess. So the Vega chassis became sporty cars like the Monza and Skyhawk, powered by the newly repurchased and revamped V6 or the Iron Duke 4 banger derived from the Chevy II. The V6 is still being produced and has evolved into the 3800.

Tue Apr 12, 2005 11:43 pm

Now for the lesson in carb mixture adjustment- your are really getting back to basics now


Mixture adjustment? :?: I get white stuff out the exhaust pipes up high, wonder if I'm running it too rich? :lol: 8)

Wed Apr 13, 2005 12:47 pm

I'd say white is lean. Some is normal. Blacker stuff would be rich.

Wed Apr 13, 2005 6:53 pm

Carm,

HR was talking about con trails :lol: :lol: 8)

Wed Apr 13, 2005 7:08 pm

Donny M wrote:Carm,

HR was talking about con trails :lol: :lol: 8)


Or as Art Bell would say.."Chem trails". :twisted:

Wed Apr 13, 2005 8:00 pm

ya know, sometimes I have my head up and locked.... after reading who wrote the post I get it now......duh

Wed Apr 13, 2005 10:43 pm

Funny thing about those variable volume engines- they don't run rich with more fuel, they just run hotter. Don't have much problem fouling plugs either. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Sat Apr 23, 2005 12:38 am

Lurker Carl wrote:
The British auto maker Rover bought the 215 tooling from GM in mid 1960's, introduced some structural reinforcements to the block and immediately began making engines for Land Rover and others. It even appeared in the Triumph TR8. Rover has made a continuous effort to improve the design and is still building it - but no longer in the 215 cid size. This engine has quite a following with the gear heads in Britian looking to hop up their Land Rovers or shoe horn them into MGs and other British marques. That makes for a plentiful supply of parts and pieces, both stock and aftermarket.


Phew quite a discussion, quite over my head, but instructive all the same.
Not being an expert on Rover, just a user for 35+ years, I THINK that the V8 was used by Rover mainly in the RANGE Rover, If it was factory fitted in LAND rover I'm not sure. But many V8s were aftermarket fitted into LAND rovers with spectacular results along with overtaxing an already weak gearbox. I have the 2.5TDi which is quite good in my Landie, but it doesn't come up to the Perkins japanese made 3 litre that I put into my last LR. Thanks for the entertainment,
Pat