composite floor joists

[John *.?-!.* cub owner]

The local news programs have been running some articles about fire problems in homes with the composite floor joists after a couple of local fire fighters were injured when a floor collapsed in a burning home. It seems that the composite joists will burn and fail in about half the time that it takes a 2x joist. many of them are refusing to enter newer homes until the floor joists are checked with an IR camera or equivalent. something to think about if you are building.

[Little Indy]

The local news programs have been running some articles about fire problems in homes with the composite floor joists after a couple of local fire fighters were injured when a floor collapsed in a burning home. It seems that the composite joists will burn and fail in about half the time that it takes a 2x joist.

This might be happening because the glue acts as accelerant for the fire. Also joists built up as a truss can be a problem because fire can travel through the joist to the next one. As in balloon framing without the firestops. I would suggest making every other one a 2byX. Wonder if they could be coated with fire retardant foam insulation.

Richard

[Ron Luebke]

always knew there had to be a weak link to these joist,but i didn't think about the fire issue.

[Jeff Silvey]

We firefighters have been complaining about this problem for YEARS. With all the glues and what ever else they want to put in the material burns three- four time fast sometimes faster. They are strong but whats a life worth when FF's get killed. Nothing to the build material people. They don't get to see their kids grow up.
I hope brothers SteveB & ffchief add their thoughts to the subject.
Like my statement saids "EVERYONE GOES HOME"
Jeff

[Steve Butram]

John, We lost a Fire fighter last summer due to the I joist burned out under the entrance to the house. And I watched a house burn up 2 weeks ago with the same construction. It appeares that there was a gas line involved in both instances. the new flex gas line is suseptable to pin holes when struck by lightning. ths State Fire Marshall told us that there have been 8 house fires in the last 12 months that have had an issue with lightning burning pin holes in the flex line causing a burner effect.

I honestly believe if the manufacturers could get GASOLINE to stand on end they would use it in some type of building construction.

[400lbsonacubseatspring]

Why can't there be some sort of plaque installed somewhere in the front of buildings.....that warns of specific hazards to firefighters.....things like old insulation, composite lumber, flexible gas lines, etc.......

If local ordinances required this, and there was a program where a firefighter could come and help fill out a survey form, listing dangerous properties of the house, if the owner was unsure.......a bronze plaque could be made inexpensively.....and attached either to the front of the house, or perhaps placed into the sidewalk.........

Even if there were only 60% compliance, it would save many lives....

[Steve Butram]

400lbsonacubseatspring wrote

Why can't there be some sort of plaque installed somewhere in the front of buildings.....that warns of specific hazards to firefighters.....things like old insulation, composite lumber, flexible gas lines, etc.......

Tom,
Do you think that the building industry is going to allow that to happen?They would have to admit that they are building substandard houses. How many home owners are going to allow a identifing plaque on their house that designates it a fire and collapse hazard. I know it is the American Dream to own my own home but I didn't cut corners when I built my home I used all full demensional lumber in the floor system and walls .
We just had a City council vote to allow the builder of these houses to build them 8' apart. So they could have walking trails and a pool.I can't wait to see the look on a home owners face when I tell them we are going to protect the neighbor's house and watch theirs burn.

Here is a Firefighting Mantra.

"If much is to be gained then much should be risked ...If nothing is to be gained then nothing should be risked"

[Little Indy]

Why can't there be some sort of plaque installed somewhere in the front of buildings.....that warns of specific hazards to firefighters.....things like old insulation, composite lumber, flexible gas lines, etc.......
If local ordinances required this, and there was a program where a firefighter could come and help fill out a survey form, listing dangerous properties of the house, if the owner was unsure.......a bronze plaque could be made inexpensively.....and attached either to the front of the house, or perhaps placed into the sidewalk.........
Even if there were only 60% compliance, it would save many lives....

Years ago I was involved in a hotel fire in Boston. I was staying on the top floor of a hotel whose fire floor had a fire. The alarm went off and I in my pj's and robe head down the stairs. I noticed the gal in front of me was nearly nude so I handed her my robe. A hotel across the street offered us coffee and rolls. After the fire was put out I noticed the fire trucks had these new things called monitors built into the dash. I was curious and asked one of the ffs as he was putting things away. He explained that the monitor is connected to a computer that has street maps of Boston in it and the dispatcher suggests routes when going to the fire. Before they get there, a screen comes up showing them where the inlets for the sprinkler system are, where the exits are, where the hydrants are, and anything from the plans posted with the city that a firefighter might want to know. I found this amazing.
This was years ago. I was still using a TRS 80.

Richard

PS I got the robe back.
PS I was worried because the fire made national news and I knew my wife would worry. No need the media got the name wrong.

[400lbsonacubseatspring]

Here is a Firefighting Mantra.

"If much is to be gained then much should be risked ...If nothing is to be gained then nothing should be risked"

Well, Steve......

Since I cannot think of anyone else, in any other field of occupation who acts in such a way as to limit the suffering of humanity, one would think that there is always much to be gained.....from a certain perspective.....

It is hence that from a Buddhist perspective, all firefighters who perish in their occupation are reborn immediately as happy gods, in a special heavenly abode, where they live for many aeons. And no firefighter shall ever know hell.

[George Willer]

This problem is one of the good reasons for installing a good (45 minute rated) fire barrier. The composite joists are a superior floor system but need to be protected from fire. 5/8" fibreglass reinforced and taped drywall should eliminate the problem, right?

[Jeff Silvey]

George:
Steve & myself like what you are saying. But I think you are not enough of a politiction. (How every you spell it). It still makes me mad that they are killing our brothers & sisters And making money.. If you can't tell this a sour subject with me. Like Steve said before it killed a brother close to him this year. I do like the responce from people that aren't FF's from this forum. We all like you people. I have been a FF for 34 years. I'm close to retirement but the boss said no. So I guest I have too be careful.
Everyone Be Safe for THANKSGIVING
Jeff

[John *.?-!.* cub owner]

This problem is one of the good reasons for installing a good (45 minute rated) fire barrier. The composite joists are a superior floor system but need to be protected from fire. 5/8" fibreglass reinforced and taped drywall should eliminate the problem, right?

yes, if they are enclosed, but most floors aren't fire barriers. and many basememts aren't finished with fire rated drywall, if finished at all.

[Steve Butram]

400lbsonacubseatspring wrote

Since I cannot think of anyone else, in any other field of occupation who acts in such a way as to limit the suffering of humanity, one would think that there is always much to be gained.....from a certain perspective.....

Tom ,
What my statement means is we do not like to loose fire fighters from a fire in an unoccupied structure. Don't get me wrong if there is a life safety issue we will do everything in our power to get the victom out. Thus proved evident in NY city on 9/11. Do you think for 1 second that those 343 FF didn't think they were not going home after their shift was over ?

What I tring to say is when a builder can have the Political power to use a building system that becomes unstable in a fire situation. Convince the code enforcement people that we are doing the right thing by providing CHEAP and affordable housing. And not take into concideration the possibilty of firefighters lives and livleyhoods over PROFIT. That is where I have a problem.

[Little Indy]

I still suggest fire retardant (FR) foam sprayed onto the joist laminated or open or OSB witin 2by4's. The stuff got a bad name on 9/11 but those towers stayed up for more than 45 minutes and in parts of the building the stuff was blown off by the explosion. It in the home and small business buildings the stuff would work and not add much to the final cost. Much like firestops in balloon contruction buildings. Also here I yield to the FF's and I'll ask my son in law,a FF, when he comes for thanksgiving but if a fire has been burning long enough and intense enough to ignite a joist with FR on it seems to me that the only things that matter are human lives and the possibility of spread.

Richard

[400lbsonacubseatspring]

Steve,

Thank you for clearing that up for me....it is what I thought you meant, but was unsure....

Nonetheless, my observation stands, that no one, in any other occupation, risks as much for the immediate benefit of people in dire need.

Politicians, like most of the general public, believe that they are building homes which likely will never see fire. We know that statistically, this is untrue, and that a home is more likely to see a major fire within 100 years, than it is not. And, while people, I suppose, have the right to build as they see fit, your safety in that eventuality MUST not be compromised.

If homeowners do not wish to have their homes labeled as "a collapse hazard".....perhaps they would consent to having a label which says "composite joists" installed somewhere....something that perhaps fire marshals could insist upon at code hearings and meetings.....since their other demands are seldom considered.

Just a thought, I know...and probably a frivolous one........