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Adding insult to injury

Anything that might not belong on the other message boards!
ljw
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Postby ljw » Mon May 15, 2006 7:23 am

Tom, I share your concerns. It's going to be a whole different country in the next few decades. I hope things change for the better, but really it's up to the younger people nowadays. It's how they want their country to be looked upon. I can pee and moan all day about the changing times and the most I can do is write my congressmen. And I try to accept the changing trends and go about my business, right or wrong.

I hired a crew of Mexican workers to hang drywall. Six men installed drywall in a 1700 sq. ft. house in 1 day. While hard work isn't everything that a man is about, it certainly is an indication. I sat with them during their lunch and they offered to share their lunch. I declined, although they prepared it in the garage, and I love Mexican food. They didn't realize that I could have eaten their lunch all by myself. :oops:

Years ago I traveled a bit and I saw different cultures. Most times they didn't have squat, but they seemed happy. Maybe we can learn something from these people. Just my 2 cents.

Larry

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Postby 400lbsonacubseatspring » Mon May 15, 2006 3:49 pm

Larry,

Of course you are correct.

Thinking about it, when I was a boy, and we'd pick potatoes at my uncle's farm, they'd bring over some old Polish women from that same town I referred to earlier. They were first generation immigrants as well, and spoke very poor English. I thought their ways very odd. For example, if they had to urinate while they were working, they'd just squat in place, and keep picking. My grandmother always told me never to work a row behind one of them..... :shock:

One time, I was "catching" sacks on the back of the flatbed, when my uncle decided to pull ahead, and I fell off the back of the truck. For the most part I was uninjured, but one of these women stepped right on me to gain a little more height to toss her sack. I voiced my displeasure at this, and she hissed something at me in Polish.

I also remember butchering with the uncles, and the old Puerto Ricans (who always scared me as a boy, all dressed in black, and looking like skeletons) who always came to get the drinks of blood from the steer while it was still alive. They would stay and help skin, gut, and halve the animal in exchange for this great gift......Blech!!!! My job, in those days, was butchering the head.........LOL I've not been very squeamish since.

So yes, we can point the finger of disapproval at the Mexicans, but I think if we truly focus on the past, we will see that all cultures had their quirks when they first came to this country. My single qualm is their seeming refusal to learn English, but perhaps I am not understanding the problem correctly. Perhaps it is our government's willingness to accomodate their language that is at fault.

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Postby Jim Becker » Mon May 15, 2006 10:23 pm

Eugene wrote:Illegal Immigrants.
. . .
The employee's identification consisted of a Social Security card and the employeer's ID card/pass. 36 or 37 of the companies employees had the same social security number.

Eugene

Employers of illegal immigrants.

How could they not notice 36 or 37 duplicate SSAN? When they sent in the payroll deductions did they add all of them together and send one form or did they send in 37 different statements with the same number? Or did they send in one and pocket the other 36?

A crackdown on employers like this would go a long way towards solving the problem.

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Postby 400lbsonacubseatspring » Tue May 16, 2006 12:17 am

With all due respect,

Sometimes, as we all know, the only way to get the job done is with "under the table" employees.

36 illegals is stretching the odds of not getting caught, however.

I don't think it appropriate to make a moral distinction between a manufacturer doing this and, say, paying a kid $20 to mow your lawn. It is merely the scale of the matter that provides the shock factor.

I know some large farms do claim labour costs, and provide 1099 forms, and deal with the liability insurance, etc. but by and large, farmers make a lot of use of under-the-table labour come harvest time. I seem to see a lot of Mexican migrant workers in all areas of the country that grow produce. Do we want to crack down on these farmers as well? The end result would be much higher produce prices at the supermarket. Are we really willing to do that? As far as I know, cabbage, tomatoes, and peppers are still best picked by hand...........

Of course, Jim, you are a Texan, and you see a different side of the coin than we do in the Northeast here.

I think my arguement is that up here, their presence is more or less neutral in the end. They provide some services that are useful, but don't really return anything to the community.

If I were a white Texan, I would probably not have the same attitude.

Regarding Social Security....do you really think that the SSA would catch multiple useage of the same number? When my wife filed for disability some 8 years ago, there were at least 3 other persons who had at least for a while, been using her SSN. It took several months, and frequent phone calls confirming places of past employment, to sort it all out.

I think it's very plausible to file 36 returns under the same reporting number and have them all accepted by the SSA, without inquiry. Since most employers use payroll services, and don't do their own payroll these days, I think it's certainly a possibility.

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Postby George Willer » Tue May 16, 2006 9:08 am

As far as I know, cabbage, tomatoes, and peppers are still best picked by hand...........


All ours are harvested by an old white guy! :shock:

The tomatoes and cabbage grown commercially are machine harvested. We have a large, world famous sour kraut factory that uses a LOT of cabbage. Unfortunately, our local Heinz catsup factory (Heinz's largest) has stopped buying local tomatoes and now imports tomato paste from Mexico. :(

The machine that harvests the tomatoes could be easily modified to pick peppers. Pickles are the one crop that defies mechanisation. (sp?).

The cost to our economy of the illegals far outweighs any imagined benefit. The cost of their medical care, for example, is borne by the rest of us, either directly or indirectly. I'd rather live without pickles than with illegals who have crept into our country like thieves in the night. :(

Let's go back to the good old days when an instruction book for anything contained useful information rather than gibberish in many languages.
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Postby Eugene » Tue May 16, 2006 9:16 am

Jim Becker wrote:
Eugene wrote:Illegal Immigrants.
. . .
The employee's identification consisted of a Social Security card and the employeer's ID card/pass. 36 or 37 of the companies employees had the same social security number.

Eugene

Employers of illegal immigrants.

How could they not notice 36 or 37 duplicate SSAN? When they sent in the payroll deductions did they add all of them together and send one form or did they send in 37 different statements with the same number? Or did they send in one and pocket the other 36?

A crackdown on employers like this would go a long way towards solving the problem.


Some time after the incident one of the HR managers was escorted to the door (that usually means fired). I never did hear (rumor) as to the reason. My gut feeling is that the company knew of the multiple SSANs but wanted the labor. The company does (or states) that they do check out your references prior to employment.

It certainly wouldn't be difficult for a large company to check it's own payroll data base for duplicate SSANs.

Eugene

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Postby Donny M » Tue May 16, 2006 9:22 am

"z" Mr. GW :lol: :lol: Penance :?: :lol: :lol:
8)

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Postby 400lbsonacubseatspring » Tue May 16, 2006 10:04 am

George,

We are "small potatoes" here, in this valley, although supermarkets a hundred miles away still advertise "famous Ringtown cabbage."...........

No one here picks cabbage, tomatoes, or peppers by machine. Never saw them do it in Lancaster area, either, another famous, but "small potatoes" farming area.

I always do learn something from you though. I hadn't known there were such machines. Kinda limits your choice of Tomato varieties, though, as they all have to be nearly ripe at the same time, or do they pick them green and gas them?

I think a far worse drain on our economy, though, George, are the "white trash" folk, who live in the public housing projects. We not only pay for their medical care, but for their housing, via HUD sct-8, and their food, via foodstamps, and frequently their heat as well. Some of them are disabled in one way or another, and are deserving, but the majority are not.

These people are guaranteed first rate medical care, and in that way, have earned my Ire. In comparasin to the much smaller number of illegals who stick hospitals with unpaid bills, they are the true menace.

Not that illegals don't pose their own problems, but I'd argue that you're chasing flies while the door is open.

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Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Tue May 16, 2006 11:33 am

Being a redneck and living here in the MO. hills, my contact wtih recently imigrated people, legal or not, is pretty limited. Teh crew that installed my metal carport were mexican however and did a great job in an area. However, only one of the 3 could speek english, and he jsut barely. Illegal? Probably.

The thing that caught my attetnion recently, though was Hiraldo. I fell asleep in my recliner, and when I woke up, he was on, talking aobut how terrible it would be if the illegal imigrants were deported, because there would be no one to mow the lawns and clean the houses. I guess I must live in a differetn wolrd than he does.
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Postby Hengy » Tue May 16, 2006 12:50 pm

I have absolutely NO qualms with IMMIGRANTS at all. Our country was founded by immigrants and grew on the backs of immigrants coming here to find the "American Way" and to make a life for themselves and their family.

My issue is with people who come here ILLEGALLY and don't have any desire to become truly "American." In the past, immigrants had a strong desire to fit in here and did not want to speak their native tongue when in public. Sure the spoke the language that was comfortable to them when around their own families and friends, but they worked hard to fit in with those around them.

Today, illegals have no desire to join the American way of life other than to earn American dollars. If these people would go about it in a legal way, and work to "join" us instead of "change" us, I truly believe that the US would prosper even more than it is currently.

Just my $0.02 worth here... NOW BACK TO OUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAM..."Cubs and the Folks Who Love Them...an American Obsession"

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Postby George Willer » Tue May 16, 2006 1:06 pm

Mike,

I may have sounded harsh enough when talking about illegals to give the impression I'm against immigration. I'm a decendent of immigrants who endured enormous hardships to get here... including the death of 3 of their children on the trip. They did come through the proper procedure and came with their heads held high, unlike those thieves who sneak in like the criminals they are.
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Postby 400lbsonacubseatspring » Tue May 16, 2006 2:24 pm

All of us, unless we are pure-bred native Americans, are descended from immigrants in one way or another. It makes no difference whether that immigration took place before or after the American Revolution, or before or after the Civil War, for that matter.

When a society starts blaming a small group of people for a lot of its problems, though, it raises all sorts of alarms inside me.

It seems, in these cases, that it's only one short step (or shall I say goose-step) to the kind of persecution we saw in Europe during WWII at the hands of my own ethnic people.

Intolerance of those who are not like you is a dangerous path to start down.

It's easy, when you have lived a good and moral life, to look at those who are different from you in other ways, and see their flaws. It isn't as if the flaws aren't there. They are, and they are very real. But in these situations, "Judge not, lest ye be judged." rings in my head.

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Postby Hengy » Tue May 16, 2006 3:47 pm

Please don't get me wrong. I am in no way anywhere even remotely close in feelings to the goose step you speak of, Tom. I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with diversity. I have lived in inner city Philadelphia and have lived in Rural Wisconsin...Definite diversity between these ares...

I only have a problem with someone...ANYONE wanting to short-circuit the system to get ahead of those who are going about things the right way.

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Postby George Willer » Tue May 16, 2006 4:22 pm

WisconsinCubMan wrote:Please don't get me wrong. I am in no way anywhere even remotely close in feelings to the goose step you speak of, Tom. I have absolutely NO PROBLEM with diversity. I have lived in inner city Philadelphia and have lived in Rural Wisconsin...Definite diversity between these ares...

I only have a problem with someone...ANYONE wanting to short-circuit the system to get ahead of those who are going about things the right way.

Mike in La Crosse, WI


Mike,

You've nailed it! I have no idea why some have their blinders on when it comes down to "illegal"?

What part of illegal can possibly be associated with "goose stepping"?

I remember well from my school days how those breaking the line were shunned. Has the world really changed that much?

If those sympathetic to the gate crashers really mean it, they should lobby for easier LEGAL immigration, but it should certainly depend on learning English!
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Postby 400lbsonacubseatspring » Tue May 16, 2006 9:50 pm

Whatever the status of our Southern Border might be.........

The people who are already here are de facto immigrants, legality issues aside. Identifying and deporting them is beyond the scale of our capacity, and beyond the humanist capacity of some. They are bearing children in this country who are, then, out of that fact, citizens.

Tighter border controls should help the situation, but nothing will ever eliminate it completely.

I too am frusrated by their lack of desire to melt into the melting pot of US society, but I blame this in part on our own government, who rushed to provide bi-lingual solutions to virtually all public services. Some people justified this by stating that our own Puerto Rican peoples (who can travel freely between Puerto Rico, and the US Mainland) needed these services, but in reality, 90% of Puerto Ricans graduate high school in their own state, and their schools have taught English and Spanish since WWI. People of Puerto Rican nationality born in the Mainland US (actually now outnumbering those living in Puerto Rico) speak both languages fluently, and always have.

I think if Mexican immigrants were forced to learn English, in order to transact business with the US government, in order to obtain services or whatnot, they would do so rather quickly, as they are not unintelligent.

Realizing that these people are here, now, and are very likely here to stay, however, requires us to muster some small modicum of compassion for them as fellow human beings, whatever their faults, crimes, or sins.

That's where "Illegal" and "goose-step" have the potential to become associated.

When I sit on a public bench in a market, and hear people blaming everything from gas prices to prescription costs on illegals, I start to see the way in which we, as a majority, could become rather ugly, quickly.

If that doesn't raise the hairs on your neck a little bit, then I'm sorry. The average German citizen began blaming Jewish merchants for the Weimar Republic's inability to repay its war debt, and for the runaway inflation in the 1920's. This same nonsensical gossip turned into a whirlwhind of lies and hatred in the hands of a clever few. We here in the US are not so much more sophisticated than the Germans of 80 years ago.

That is my only point. I'm not advocating immigration. I'm advocating compassion, and vigilance in regard to one's opinions. I see a lot of potential for disaster here.


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