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400lbsonacubseatspring
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Postby 400lbsonacubseatspring » Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:17 pm

Jack Fowler wrote:With the dust I always had a big concern for explosions


Venting your dust collector effluent back into the shop should be ok, if it's well filtered, like GW's.
Jack Fowler wrote:, but the fumes from the varnish/stains/paints, I did not only have concerns with explosions, but with health problems. I was thinking about a heat exchanger for the intake side to see if I could make that work, but he started spending his winter months in a warmer climate.


Even the best heat exchangers will only do so much. At best, they will meet you half way, so, if the incoming air is 30 degrees F, and the outgoing 70 degrees F, you could raise the incoming air to 50. Which will still need some heat added to make it comfortable. It's better than nothing if you're heating with fuel that costs you money, but not by a whole lot.

I have seen homemade heat exchangers that did better than that, but they took a whole lot of time to make, and did not reach peak efficiency unless they were run for some hours continuously.

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George Willer
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Postby George Willer » Sun Dec 11, 2005 7:31 pm

400lbsonacubseatspring wrote: Even the best heat exchangers will only do so much. At best, they will meet you half way, so, if the incoming air is 30 degrees F, and the outgoing 70 degrees F, you could raise the incoming air to 50. Which will still need some heat added to make it comfortable. It's better than nothing if you're heating with fuel that costs you money, but not by a whole lot.

I have seen homemade heat exchangers that did better than that, but they took a whole lot of time to make, and did not reach peak efficiency unless they were run for some hours continuously.


Tom,

That's exactly why I designed my ground source heat pump system as direct exchange... to eliminate any primary heat exchanger. Not to gloat or anything, but my heat is now costing less than half of what gas fired systems cost for the same size homes. :D
George Willer
http://gwill.net

The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. Ambrose Bierce

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John(videodoc)
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Postby John(videodoc) » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:12 am

Hey George, loved pics of your shop as well.
Man ya got a lotta toys. ever thought about adopting? :lol:

Its been 20 yrs since ive done 240 work, wouldnt have the first clue. the pole barn is where the welder will go, sure i'm going to need one, doubtful a reliable one can be found that operates on 120. that would be the only 240 item in my collection. that i can think of currenlty.

ps like that set up.

John

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George Willer
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Postby George Willer » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:42 am

videodoc wrote:Hey George, loved pics of your shop as well.
Man ya got a lotta toys. ever thought about adopting? :lol:
John


Sure thing... already have. Adopted son Yo's Dad (sometimes poster) and his adopted son Bigdog. It was a good deal... didn't cost much! :D
George Willer
http://gwill.net

The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. Ambrose Bierce

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Postby Rudi » Wed Dec 14, 2005 2:34 pm

George:

Not to gloat or anything, but my heat is now costing less than half of what gas fired systems cost for the same size homes.


I will try not to gloat either... but my house is about 3600 square feet over 3 floors.. not too large by some standards, but the basement is 10 feet from the floor to the bottom of the joists... with the other two floors a standard 8 foot.

Lots of cubic footage to heat and to circulate air.

People just about choke when they find out what it costs me to heat my house....

less than $300.00 Cdn/year... :D :D :lol: which includes all costs.

I have only ever had my electric backup plant come on once..... and in the previous 17 years prior to converting to electric back-up from propane back-up, my propane funace only came on twice.. Sooooo I like my heating bill.. kinda hard to beat. What costs the most is fuel for the Chain Saw, Saw Motor and Ellie... and a little for NB Power to run the fans...
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400lbsonacubseatspring
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Postby 400lbsonacubseatspring » Wed Dec 14, 2005 8:10 pm

Of all things, I burn coal.

We have an old coal-fired cookstove that heats the whole house under normal circumstances. We burn wood in it until thanksgiving, and after april 15th, usually, if heat is needed (not always needed) and we burn around 4 ton a year, at $80/ton (last time I got a truckfull).

Our house is a 2 story, total 3200 sq ft. Sometimes, when it's very cold (below 15 degrees) and windy, we have electric fireplaces that we fire up in the living room and in my bedroom. An electric space heater is usually required in the bathroom in winter, as the upstairs is usually only about 55 degrees, but it makes for good sleeping.

Any extra electric usage from the heaters is more than offset by not having to use the electric range nearly as much, as most of our cooking is done on the coal stove during winter.

The decision to do this was based on living in the midst of anthracite coal country, where coal is both readily accessible, and cheap (relatively). It also supports our local economy, if you're careful who you buy from.

Environmentally, it's about the worst thing I could do, however, as antracite burns rather completely in an open-aspirated stove, and 90% of its weight is carbon, which ends up in the atmosphere, in my case about 4 tons of carbon a year.

I need a better solution, but just haven't thought of it yet.

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Postby Jack fowler » Wed Dec 14, 2005 10:16 pm

It’s early Wednesday morning and getting ready to get on a flight to Detroit. I’m setting here looking at my Laptop of notes for two days of classes I have to give. I was doing a little research on the web and I drifted over to Farmall.com. (You can see where my mind is). I’m going to copy and paste a post into Word and write my reply when in flight. Maybe the Flight Attendants will think I’m some sort of a big shot when I’m typing away, but on second thought if you could see me type it will be the contrary.

I’m in flight and there is one thing I just found out never to do with this laptop; never copy and paste any of the Farmall.com forums to Word because I just about crash this thing for some crazy reason. I ended up pasting everything to Word pad and that worked somewhat better. I do this on my Desk top PC (to Word) all the time and I have no problems. This really scared me; all my info for the next two days is on this thing!!!

My flight is Via Cincinnati to Detroit and I hope I can get a Wi- Fi hot spot to post at the Airport.

George said

My vacuum system vents back into the 1200+ sq ft shop through a filter system and I have an auxiliary circulating filter to use when the woodworking equipment is in operation. By doing it this way, I don't lose (note spelling) any heat.
I don't have ANY bare wall. In addition to the overhead door I have 3 walk in doors with large windows in them that don't waste wall space.


My ventilation system exhaust into the unheated garage where the Dodge truck is setting. (1000 sq.ft) The wood shop is a closed four wall, ten foot ceiling all insulated. In the garage area where the truck (Dodge) sets, I have future plans of finishing and insulating. Two major things that are in my way at this time, which are….. time and mostly money. I use this garage area for painting and light repair when weather permits.

The vent out of the wood working shop was an experiment to see how much fumes entered the other garage area through the filter. I didn’t want to loose any heat like (George has his set up). I have a filter on the exhaust much like an auto paint shop has, but when you’re using any solvents (varish, stain, ect.) in the wood shop it gets pretty fumy in the area where the exhaust comes out, at which time all the heat is pulled out of the wood shop. With electric base board heat there is no quick recovery. I forgot to say I do have a vent for outside fresh air in the shop and that’s were I was talking about a heat exchanger. When I insulate the area where the vent comes out of the wood shop I don’t think it will be too safe with those fumes coming out like they do. Do you have this issue George? The only thing left, is vent to the outside and then I’m defeating the heat issue. The way I can fix this is a quick recovery heat system, but that will cost a lot of dollars for heat. The exhaust for the equipment saw dust is piped through the floor to the outside and I have a minimum heat lost with that.

The shop where the Ford truck sets is 900 sq.feet. + 500 sq.ft.of Storage. This is a clear span truss building with 16 foot (at peak) ceiling with 10 foot walls. I have it insulated trying to find the time to build the partition between the shop and the storage space. I built this type of building (clear span truss type) so I can someday install an auto lift and also pull large equipment in to work on. Entrances to this building are an overhead door, walk in and a double siding for the storage area. If you can notice in the picture a Backhoe is setting in back part of the building.

When I built these buildings, heating them, was very much on my mind. I use Propane to heat my house so I ran an extra gas line to a place where I thought I may put the furnace. Then I started thinking about the possibility of explosions and fire with the furnace inside the buildings, especially when painting, fuel spills, fumes and ect. So I dropped that idea and put electric base board heaters in the wood shop and now trying to decide what to do with the rest.

I think I read of someone talking about a ground source heat pump. When I built my house I almost went that route. The cost was $10,000 at the time and I couldn’t justify it, but they said it would pay itself back in ten years. I installed a 90+ gas furnace which really runs very efficient, but I paid $1.25 a gallon for Propane last summer on a pre pay plan which makes me think the ground source heat pump probably would have been the way to go years back. I know the price of petroleum type fuels are going to get out of control. At this time I’m heating a 2000 Sq.feet house and gas hot water for around $650-750 a year.

The thing with ground source you’re starting out with a temperature of 50-55 degrees F. That really makes a big difference when the weather is really cold or hot.

Well almost to Cincinnati. I have to connect with another flight to Detroit. I wish they would book direct flights....I can almost guarantee my luggage will end up in New York. You can’t believe how they have me booked going home, Leaving Detroit to St.Louis Via Atlanta. Maybe they will let me jump out over St.Louis on the way to Atlanta.


It’s 9.00 PM in Detroit and I’m settled in my Hotel. I “jumped” a flight in Cincinnati to get into Detroit early, but when I arrived my luggage wasn’t with my early fight, it went on the later flight. At least it made it.

P.S. When in Detroit people say you usually have three good weather days a year. Today is not one of them.

Jack Fowler

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Postby Paul_NJ » Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:13 am

George, can I ask you a question? I've looked at the photos of your shop you have on your website, and notice that you used PVC for the piping in your dust removal system. I was thinking along those lines myself but read that there may be a problem using PVC with static electricity. I believe they stated a potential fire hazard. I'm certain you've thought it out well, considering the fire I read you once had. Can you tell me how you designed the system to be safe?

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John(videodoc)
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"Roxie" - 144 Complete Cults'
"Sandy"(Done) 193 Plow
1950 Demo, "Billie"
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Corn Stalk Cutter
23a Disc
&
2005 Mahindra w/FEL
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Postby John(videodoc) » Thu Dec 15, 2005 11:52 am

wow, i'm like a kid in a candy store looking at these pictures. but i cant even go in an touch. man that sucks! :(

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Postby George Willer » Thu Dec 15, 2005 12:34 pm

Paul_NJ wrote:George, can I ask you a question? I've looked at the photos of your shop you have on your website, and notice that you used PVC for the piping in your dust removal system. I was thinking along those lines myself but read that there may be a problem using PVC with static electricity. I believe they stated a potential fire hazard. I'm certain you've thought it out well, considering the fire I read you once had. Can you tell me how you designed the system to be safe?



Paul,

I can't and won't certify that it's safe, but I no longer use any kind of ground system. Originally I had a wire threaded through each section of pipe for a ground. It would be fine except for the trouble I had with the stringy planer shavings getting caught on the wires and causing !#$%^ plug-ups. The wires have been removed for many years. Without a planer I think the wires would be fine. My thinking is that static sparks are much more likely on the outside of the pipe.

Now... I'm thinking of adding a ground system to my office chair. :D This smiley describes what happens every time I get up.
(shocked) :shock:

How many remember the dangly noisy static chains that used to be on all fuel delivery trucks? How long have they been gone?
George Willer
http://gwill.net

The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. Ambrose Bierce

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Postby Paul_NJ » Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:32 pm

George

Can you tell me more about your vacuum system? I recall looking into it a year or so ago, and the options I saw were a cyclone system made by Oneida (which was over $1000), or a dual bag arrangement from Delta and Jet (or Grizzly or someone like that). I have a surface planer along with the usual saws, and I'd love to cut down the dust in the air. I'd be very interested how you set up yours.

Paul
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Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Thu Dec 15, 2005 7:33 pm

Geroge, my desk cahir at work had the smae problem, but most office supply places have a sprya bottle called shock guard, or static rid (also sold under other names) that you cna spray on the cloth seat and sove the problem. sure makes life less exciting.
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you are part of the problem!!!

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George Willer
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Postby George Willer » Thu Dec 15, 2005 9:22 pm

Paul_NJ wrote:George

Can you tell me more about your vacuum system? I recall looking into it a year or so ago, and the options I saw were a cyclone system made by Oneida (which was over $1000), or a dual bag arrangement from Delta and Jet (or Grizzly or someone like that). I have a surface planer along with the usual saws, and I'd love to cut down the dust in the air. I'd be very interested how you set up yours.

Paul


Paul,

I'll try to make the description brief. The bin is an open topped plywood box on casters. That allows it to be rolled outside to be picked up and carried by a loader for emptying.

The box has a weighted fabric top for a filter that unfolds each time the blower is started, causing it to be self cleaning. The blower was shop built using a housing found in a salvage yard and a 2 HP pump motor driving a shop built impeller. The blower is controlled by a low voltage setup with a microswitch on the blast gate on each machine.

For additional air cleaning I have a cube on casters containing a large furnace blower. There are two double furnace filters on opposite sides of the cube for intakes. This unit does a good job of removing the fine particles from the air created by those nice carbide blades. The top of the cube is a handy portable work surface.

http://photos.toast.net/gwill/vacuum%20system
George Willer
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The most affectionate creature in the world is a wet dog. Ambrose Bierce


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