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Appreciate comments on land survey problem.

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Jeff D. N.E. Wis.
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Appreciate comments on land survey problem.

Postby Jeff D. N.E. Wis. » Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:05 pm

Here is the scoop. Last year we finally got our 40 acres surveyed after owning it for 12 years. Cost was a factor for waiting. $1,800.00 worth. Anyway, got it done by a reputable firm, corner pins placed, and stakes placed about every 300' so I could put a new line fence back up. Their was no signs of a previous line fence. The new line ended up being about 4' to 9' over on the neighbors side from brushy line that was assumed to be the correct boundary line.

So this summer I bush hogged all the weeds and grass and started to erect the new fence. This week the neighbor calls and says that the previous line was not to be moved, survey or not. He said something that if a line fence has been their for 20 years, that IS the boundary line no matter what your property description says.

So as I see it, what is the use of spending all that money on a modern survey when someone can say that it is not right and it has to go back to the previous assumed line fence location. He is already talking real estate lawyer, and previous encounters his brother has had with real estate dealings and that is telling me I am SOL. This just don't seem right.

Thanks for letting me rant. Sorry about the long post. Sure would like to hear others comments on this. Thanks again.

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Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:14 pm

The lwas very by state. in Mo. the property description is the last word, no matter where the fence was. It would have been a good idea however, to have talked to the neighbor before you started the fencing and clearing. You may me correct legally, but have natagonized a neighbor needlessly.
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Postby WKPoor » Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:15 pm

I've kind of been where your at but not with a neibor involved. There is something about if a fence is put up and not desputed for 20+ yrs. Problem is somebody has been paying taxes all those yrs on a given size of property. I would go down to the courthouse and see whats on their books. If you and your niebor have been paying taxes on the right amount then I would say the line can be moved to its proper location. I think surveys on most old farms prove things aren't always like the owners thought.

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Postby Jim Becker » Fri Oct 21, 2005 10:26 pm

You might want to talk to your title company if one was involved when you bought the land. Did they identify any encroachments?

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Postby Lurker Carl » Fri Oct 21, 2005 11:36 pm

Whether you're pay taxes on 40 acres or 40K square feet, the fence isn't an issue except by visual standards. A legimate survey will establish actual property boundries, all property owners are only paying taxes on their square footage regardless of fence lines. Let your neighbor rant all they want, there isn't an issue unless they can prove your survey is incorrect. They will be responsible for a survey of their property to determine their boundries before any determination can be made.
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Postby Eugene » Sat Oct 22, 2005 12:18 am

Interesting situation.

You own the property up to the surveyed stakes.

The question is who is going to own the fence. You might take a look at the fencing law in you state. Missouri has several quirks in the fencing law. Missouri's fencing law in on line (internet). http://aglaw.missouri.edu/

It may be that your neighbor is required to put in and maintain half of the fence. Or, that if you put in and pay for the fence - that you can put a lien on his property. That may be what he is venting about.

Eugene

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Postby John(videodoc) » Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:27 am

as with most thinks i got an opinion on this one. actually two scenios.

1. the family farm, in northwest iowa. when dad sold 95% of it to the state to become the nations largest equstrian park, they had it resurveyed. mustta been 100 yrs since last survey. anyway, we always believed that we owned the land, to the middle of the gravel road. wrong, acutally we owned the land to the middle of our lane. the south side of the lane orginally was part of the field cross the road, but when the railroad came through, they screwed it all up. had to get the neighbor to sign off on the deal. and he was in europe at the time. what a pain.

2. my place, i got 24.96 acres+/-. the orginal family member that owned this ground, stepped off 5 paces IN from the old fence line, and put the new line, not wanting to piss off the neighbers (1946), and the fence has been there ever since. My piece, started out being 50 acre square, before a cousin bought a piece(1960), an uncle bought a piece (1990), fatherinlaw took his piece(1989) and the uncle wanted a school out here, gave an acre to the school system (1947), and then finally my piece in 1999. No survery has been done, except the 15 acres the cousin took (it was across the road). had a guy look at it once, said at least a week and $5000. so when i am independently wealthy, i'll get er done. I gots a good idea where the lines go around the school house (newly remodled 2 bedroom home - beautiful, by the way he paints show cars for a living-want to keep em on my side), fatherinlaw and i are planning to walk our line out next spring, the uncle and i were to walk our line out this spring but his battling cancer :( , and looks to be losing, so that one my be a problem.

anyway, what i am trying to say. unless you have it surveyed the fenceline is the boundary. and in iowa, (dont know yet about illinois) even if there was one orginal fence post, regarless of the new survery, you could not move the fence. only after the ENTIRE old fence row was removed, then surveyed, and then new fence line put in. So anybody out there reading, and has a similiar experience. get you neighbor to agree to a new fence (at your expense is the only way they'll agree), rip out old fence. then get sick ( :wink: ) wait for teh survey team, and then do what they say. :lol:

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Postby JBall8019 » Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:34 am

Jeff,
Go see your county engineer, he may have the authority to settle the dispute.
John

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Postby Rudi » Sat Oct 22, 2005 2:55 pm

What I do not understand is, what is the burr under your neighbours bonnet :?: :? He may feel that the area in dispute is indeed on his property, but to prove it and to lay legal claim - he must be prepared to hire a survey team to prove his belief/statement. Otherwise he is just squatting. Unless he is willing to do so, then he is just blowing hot air. Do not let him bully you on this. As long as your survey is registered, there should be no problem.

Also, how does one transfer legal ownership of property without a legal survey being completed. How can one be sure of meets and bounds without said survey :?: How does one clear escrow without it :?:

Geez, I believe this is beginning to sound like a Royal Bank of Scotland commercial :shock: :roll: :lol:

Here in New Brunswick and I think the rest of the country, it is relatively simple. When you purchase land, you MUST have a survey completed to establish the meets and bounds. Title cannot be transferred legally with out a meets and bounds survey completed, replete with all numbered corner pins and well marked bounds along the side and end lines. Also, if and I emphasize, if after that survey is completed and duly registered with the land registry office there is still a disagreement with a neighbour, then the neighbour is required by law to hire his own surveyor and a new survey performed at his cost.

At one time there was allowance for Squatter's Rights and if one was to reside/work a piece of land that belonged to someone else for a given period of time without dissent by the owner, then possible claim of ownership could be made. I do believe that Squatter's Rights no longer is recognized, primarily due to that new fangled thing they call property tax...
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Postby George Willer » Sat Oct 22, 2005 3:21 pm

At one time there was allowance for Squatter's Rights and if one was to reside/work a piece of land that belonged to someone else for a given period of time without dissent by the owner, then possible claim of ownership could be made. I do believe that Squatter's Rights no longer is recognized, primarily due to that new fangled thing they call property tax...


We know it here in Ohio as adverse posession. For a claim to be valid the posession must be open and notorious and to the exclusion of the rightful owner. In other words, the claimant must have acted to the world as the rightful owner by among other things paying the taxes on the disputed area.

We're faced by a related issue... an adversely created easement in our favor. We have crossed an adjacent (vacant) property to farm a land-locked 7 acres for over 33 years. Now, under new ownership, the parcel is posted "no trespassing".
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Postby 400lbsonacubseatspring » Sat Oct 22, 2005 4:30 pm

There are some issues here, regarding squatting and grandfather clauses, such as: we have a 15' strip at the top of the fields, that various neighbors have used to access their fields since long before I owned this. One of these, that owns the bushland above this strip, however, makes one hell of a mess, with his timbering, and leaves stumps and brush in my fields from time to time. My cousin hit a stump with his rotocutter some years before I bought this, and the neighbor said that the stump wasn't his....stumps from space, I guess..... At any rate, in the end, the result was that we couldn't prohibit the neighbor from utilizing that piece as access (even though he has adjacent access from his own backyard), but he did get a $300 littering fine.

Anyway, people who call and threaten, usually stretch the truth to their advantage, in hopes of making you feel powerless, and hence give up. A $50 or less consult with a reputable real estate attourney, will give you a good idea of the rights and the laws in your area. Also, if a fence fails, it's a good spot to put a few staggered rows of christmas trees or orchard. Just enough to be annoying, which is always a worthwhile endeavour.

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Postby ljw » Sat Oct 22, 2005 7:44 pm

when I bought my property in the 70's, I have always had an 40' wide easement about 500' long as an additional way to get to my property other than my driveway. But I never used it. The easement wasn't adjacent to my property but down the road a short ways. The owner of the property was living there before I was. Last year he asked me to deed the easement over to him as he wanted to build a barn on that location. I told him that I would do it if my lawyer could look at the deed forfeiture paperwork, first. My lawyer said that if the owner maintained the land for at least, I think it was 21 years, it may be possible for the owner to obtain title to the property but it wasn't automatic and he wouldn't be assured of winning the decision if it went to court. But he had been paying the taxes on the land all this time. So my lawyer OK'ed it and I signed the property to him. You know messing with somebody's land is risky business. I try to keep it in my head that I don't really truly own my land, and that I'll have to leave one these days. But until then, GITURDONE!!!!! Larry

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Postby Dale51 » Sun Oct 23, 2005 6:51 am

1st off talk to the survey co. you used they should be up to date on this
& are they willing to go to court with you if needed. A lot of them won't!!!!
2nd get your self a lawyer period!!!!
3rd Don't let his threats stop you from what is yours. Just do it by the book
& stay to the letter of the law.
He will be mad but remember you have to live beside him.
Here in NY Allegheny Co. you can only move the fence line if it is not in use for Ag. such as a fence for cows.

PS: Here a new fence has to be 3 to 4 feet on your side of the property line.

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Postby John(videodoc) » Sun Oct 23, 2005 7:26 am

when we got our place back in 2000/2001, a guy lived in that school house no one liked on our raod, and since he had .66 of an acre and i owne three sides of his place, his STUFF runnth over. (beer cans, chew cans, general garabage he couldnt put in the trash. his three sides laid neglected for 30 yrs, so it was severly overgrown and just nasty, couldnt walk through it then)

I had a general contaractor friend (after i had cleared the land) come out with blue prints, and we spent a couple of hours walking the ground along the fence. he saw us (new when he would be home) :wink: and came out and asked what we were up too. told him i was getting ready to install 3 hog barns on his north, east and west sides :wink: ,

he suddenly decided to move, and took the first offer.. he didnt say nothing. wasnt a couple of weeks later, he was packed up. and gone. he did forget to pick up his years to filth that ran over into my yard though. the new neighbor is 100 time better. and even picked up that guys filth. :D

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Postby Marion(57 Loboy) » Sun Oct 23, 2005 3:50 pm

Jeff,

Tell that sob that maybe he's right....but now, for the next umpteen years, the nasty ugly brushline will be 10 feet in on HIS side of the property!! Perhaps he will have a different perspective then. As for irritating the neighbors with your survey.....who the hell cares! The way I see it, people like that aren't good neighbors anyhow, and what are you losing???

What's yours IS YOURS, and shame on THE NEIGHBOR for trying to take advantage of you. He's probably the one that started mowing past his property line years ago anyhow.

I did that for years at a home we owned a while ago. I had a small lot that backed up to an unused field. I mowed and mowed and mowed until "my" lot was about 100 feet deeper than it really was, just to have the view, a spot for playing ball, badminton, horseshoes and crap like that. I never did know who owned it...and I NEVER, EVER thought by mowing it for my own enjoyment that I'd EVER have ANY say so in the property! One thing I will ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS remember my Grandfather telling me was......"Jr, you can be anything you want in life.....just don't be an asshole" That is a DIRECT QUOTE from the wisest man I have ever known. It's apparent your neighbor never got that advise.

I say keep what's yours, and I kinda like the idea that he may have to pay for half the fence now !!!.....I have little tolerance for people that think they can tell you what you can't do with what's NOT THEIRS !!


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