154 hydro??

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154 hydro??

Postby BigBill » Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:11 am

What would happen if you put a hydraulic motor on a 154 tranny with a hydraulic pump to run it with a flow control valve?

I been browsing the hydraulic motors that have 3,000rpm+ out put and with high out put in torque. It doesn't seem hard to do.

Ever think about it with a 154 or a cub cadet? If you were going to build a tractor from scratch its a thought. Using a double detent control valve for direction and a foot operated flow control valve.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: 154 hydro??

Postby Eugene » Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:28 am

Thought about using a hydraulic pump and hydraulic motor to run a trimming mower. When I finished with the calculations and cost figures - not practical.

I have a Case 1816 skid steer that operates strictly off of hydraulics. Two hydraulic pumps - one for the loader and one for the drive wheels. And two hydraulic motors on the drive wheels. The 16 HP engine runs at full RPM (3500 to 4000 rpms) when operating the skid steer.

I would have to double check the hydraulic fluid capacity - I think the Case 1816 holds around 10 or 12 gallons of hydraulic fluid.

Opinion. To build one machine would be not economically viable. If one had a factory and wanted to build several hundred thousand - might be a different story.
I have an excuse. CRS.
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Re: 154 hydro??

Postby BigBill » Tue Jun 10, 2008 11:02 am

Your right two hydraulic pumps would be needed to operate the drive and loader. But if we had all the extra parts,(mechanicals) with the hydraulics being the only thing thats needed it maybe cost effective over buying a new or used tractor with a loader which isn't cheap nowadays.

My 4 cylinders just arrived and the cost was $475 for 2" bore cylinders(2 @ 30" stroke (loader arms) and 2 @ 24" stroke (bucket). The pump was $105, the oil tank was $20, the 3 lever control valve was $125 and the oil filter for the return line was $20. With the hoses left to purchase I think it will come in around $1000 total or under using all brand new parts. It may go over that amount if i need to purchase the bucket steel to fab it. With that price tag i need to add the hydraulics for the drive. I don't think it can cost more than $1,000.

My point is a brand new tractor with a loader is around 15k to 25k depending on the model. I hate to tie up that much $$$ in one tractor thats going to sit most of the time when my work is done. This is my idea of attaching a hydraulic motor to a standard tranny then i eliminate the clutch and have the best of both worlds. The hydraulics is more forgiving. Its just an idea I had. Of course I have to add power steering and a small backhoe too. If it can be done for around $4k thats not bad. It may cost more with a new engine. (diesel or gas)

I was thinking of copying my int154 cub frame only using thicker metal. I don't want to touch my int154 cub since it has the 3pt and 3260 deck. I have the extra body parts for the 154 too already. (all the sheetmetal) Plus extra front axles, steering gear and 13.6x16 turf tires on rims.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: 154 hydro??

Postby Eugene » Tue Jun 10, 2008 5:21 pm

I paid $1000- for a Case 1816 skidsteer and $2100- for a Bobcat 610 skidsteer. Sold a Johnson loader for a CubCadet several years ago for $500-.

Go for it if you want a fun project. You will need an engine to match the hydraulics or the hydraulics to match the engine.
You need to consider that there is a power loss with each hydraulic pump, hydraulic fitting, valve, hydraulic motor and hose involved - so to replace a tractor's clutch with a hydraulic pump, valves, reservoir, hoses, fittings and hydraulic motor - - -.
I have an excuse. CRS.
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Re: 154 hydro??

Postby Garland Terry » Sat Jun 28, 2008 11:44 pm

You will need a cooler of some kind. And a huge resevoir. That was the problem with the Hydro IH tractors that were made back in the 70s. They would run way to hot and couldn't hold pressure. You guys got too much time on your hands HAHHAAAHH :lol:
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Re: 154 hydro??

Postby BigBill » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:07 am

Its not too much time that is the problem its all the rain were getting. Its putting a damper on the garden as well as my drainage problem. I'm grooming my gravel driveway every day now with my jeep tractor. Which is suppose to sleep all summer to rest up for winter plowing and costing more for gas too. I'm hoping this weather pattern doesn't continue into the winter months. I may have to get a track vechicle?

I didn't get too far with 8 gallons of gas at the gas station for my tractors the other day. We don't get much for $50......my car got gipped.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: 154 hydro??

Postby Garland Terry » Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:08 pm

I see. I have threatened to go back to a horse and a mule team myself! I suppose were pretty lucky around heah. Gas is 3.79 I bet you yankees are payin alot more than that. Diesel is what is killin me. Red diesel is over 4 bucks a gallon No tax on farm fuel you know. I need to mow some weeds bad. I have a 4240 and 15' brushhog but the damn thing burns about 8 gallons per hour. Wish i could buy more cows but they are to high to buy and too cheap to feed. If it ain't the windmill broke then it's the well. Good luck remember the Terry family motto. Bastardo non-carborundum.
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Re: 154 hydro??

Postby b52c130 » Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:24 pm

Hey Bill, I think that you have a very GOOD idea about the Hydrostatic Drive. I think that it would in fact be relatively easy.

Frist, the 154, 185, 184 series use the same basic transmission as the older Cub Cadets - in fact it is almost identical. All that IH did was remove the cast iron axle housings (tubes) from the older Cadets differential case and replace the axle housings with the 'bull gear' drive housings on the 154, 185, 184 series.

Now the real interesting thing is that IH came out with the 1872 and 2072 Hydro Cadets in the late 80's - these continued to use the same differential case as the manual transmission older Cadets.

Sooo, #1 - find a 1872 or 2072 (18HP & 20HP), remove the Hydro / Differential from it, remove the Cadet axle tubes.

#2 - remove the 'Bull Gear Drives' from the numbered Loboy, remove the trans / differential from the numbered Loboy.

#3 - Install the Hydro / Differential into the numbered Loboy, then reinstall the 'Bull Gear Drives' back on the sides of the new Hydro / Differential take from the Cadet.

#4 - Rob and switch over all the miscellaneous 'Hydro Controls" from the doner Cadet - and you now have an all IH Hydro Loboy.

I might be missing something, but the Hydro is from a similar HP tractor. The PTO shaft remains separate and outside the power flowing thru the Hydro unit (no PTO power loss due to Hydraulics). In fact the 1872 & 2075 offered an 'optional PTO' that flowed thru the Hrdro / Differential (came out near the top of the flat rear differential cover) - I think that it was a 'more standard size' PTO, but I don't know if it still turned in the wrong direction. Since all forward / backward ground movement is controlled by the hydro unit, I believe that you could use the 154, 185 no clutch on flywheel setup with no clutch before the Hydro Unit. The PTO would then obviously be 'live', but I don't know how the 'optional PTO' was turned on and off (I assume it must have had some sort of 'in / out ' lever to control it). With the 2 live PTO's you now have further options for an additional PTO powered hydraulic pump for new accessories.

More and more potential projects !!!!
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Re: 154 hydro??

Postby BigBill » Sat Sep 06, 2008 9:15 pm

My crazy idea is to put my Ih 3260 mower deck on my fcub to free up my int154 loboy to work on it. Or another option is to just build a whole new loboy since i have purchased most of the parts from hamiltonbob already. I just need the hydraulics for the hydro drive. I'm leaning towards building a whole new 154 tractor. I have the gear drive setup, the complete steering and most of the dash & sheetmetal parts already. I can come off the 154 tranny with a channel frame to the front.

I been thinking of using a hydraulic motor on the standard tranny. Most guys here suggest the foot operating control valve which sounds like a good idea too. I figure a hydraulic driven PTO?

Right now my log splitter parts are being torch cut to build it. Then my plan is to build my FEL for one of my cadets and next is my tractor build. (I hope) I'm just going slow and doing the best i can right now. Planning ahead is very important so i get it right the first time.

I was cutting the grass twice a week but its costly so i lower the 3260 deck more to keep it lower and cut it once a week now. But with all the rain were getting the grass is growing more. The 4x4 jeep tractor has been busy with the gravel driveway too after the heavy rains its washing out so the jeep tractor with the plow is grooming it.

There also predicting more snow than normal too plus colder temps. I guess we'll be plowing more too all winter. I'm thinking of taking one of my cadets and installing a snowblower in just incase i run out of room to plow the snow then i can throw it farther away. More snow than normal just what i need. Were getting hammered with rain, its been this way all summer. Twice a month i put $50 out for gas and its going to continue all winter i guess too.
I'm technically misunderstood at times i guess its been this way my whole life so why should it change now.
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Re: 154 hydro??

Postby b52c130 » Sat Sep 06, 2008 10:22 pm

Personally I would NOT run the PTO thru the Hydro - it's too inefficient. You waste 25% of the HP for NOTHING. The PTO powers the HP hogs like mower, snow thrower, tiller, etc, and the 154, 185, 184 don't have the power to waste. If you can find a 'trashed' older hydro cadet, you could gut the hydro/differential unit and just 'drop it in' the 154 with just a 'straight shaft' with an added u-joint, straight into the hydro input shaft.

Go 'snoop around' here:

http://www.ihregistry.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

Good Luck with the project !!!
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Re: 154 hydro??

Postby Bermuda Ken » Wed Sep 10, 2008 4:31 pm

Actually......when IH was developing the 154, they considered making it a hydro transmission tractor. The cost to tool up for this vs keeping the tried and true gear drive was too much. I have development papers on the 154 that mention this.
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Re: 154 hydro??

Postby b52c130 » Fri Sep 12, 2008 8:17 pm

After doing some more reading research at the Yahoo IH Loboy (154, 185, 184) Forum - I discovered why just taking the Hydro Trans / Differential out of an older Cub Cadet (say an 2072 Model) won't work - The regular Kohler engines turn about 3,600 RPM , input into the HYdro pump. The C60 Cub engines only turn about 2,000 to 2,200 RPM - this would mean that top ground speed for the converted Tractor would be cut by almost 40% from present - NOT USEFUL !!!
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Re: 154 hydro??

Postby Buivkv6loboy154 » Tue May 07, 2013 9:27 pm

Has any body built a hydro Lo boy? I have a 154 lo boy with a bad c60 engine plan to install a Cat C1.1 diesel engine it is rated 13.3-28.2 bhp @ 2200-3400 rpm , I have a good hydro unit from a 1772 diesel cub , and a cast iron hydro transmission from a IHI cub cadet. If b52c130 is correct I think think this might work . So far all I know is the rear end covers seems to be the same. When I get time to go farther with this project i will post photos and more info.
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Re: 154 hydro??

Postby Buivkv6loboy154 » Sat May 11, 2013 11:19 am

16649.jpg
302 ford 154 loboy
16649.jpg (39.71 KiB) Viewed 786 times


The inspration for the 154 loboy project
Image027b.jpg
231 buick test fit
Image027b.jpg (69.57 KiB) Viewed 786 times
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Re: 154 hydro??

Postby Toolman185 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:46 pm

I have been thinking about this subject for the last few days, and it would be very do-able. could add a couple of pillow blocks, cut the drive shaft, drive the pump off the engine shaft and connect the motor to the transmission side (maybe gates timing belts if room is tight) you would only need a couple of gallons of fluid, and could use a heat exchanger plumbed into the radiator for cooling. You do need a swash plate pump to get variable displacement and reversability though, the motor is nothing special. This could be taken off a suitable sized hydro tractor that has a separate pump, or off some industrial equipment in a bone yard. The PTO would be left alone as somone else correctly mentioned. You do loose a bit of power to heat, but man would it be a nice mower with foot pedal forward reverse. I have a bit of background in these kinds of things (Mechanical Engineer for 25 years now). Cost depends on your scrounging skills.
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