Engine Differences

All other non-specific model Farmall / IH / CASE tractors. (Catch-All)

Moderator: Team Cub

Forum rules
Notice: For sale and wanted posts are not allowed in this forum. Please use our free classifieds or one of our site sponsors for your tractor and parts needs.

Engine Differences

Postby FarmerFred888 » Sun Aug 28, 2005 10:31 pm

I am repeating this from my post in the Farmall Tractor Sizes Postings

The A's, C's, Super A's, and Super C's used the same basic blocks there were several differences though between them other than the transmissions and treads

The Only Difference between an A and a C is that a C uses a high compression piston, the pistons from a C will go into an A and give it a HP boost, this is what many tractor pullers do to make them run stronger

The only difference between a Super A and a Super C is the same, the pistons are different. The pistons for a Super A and an A are identical and The Pistons for a C and a Super C are identical

a B Uses a the Same Block as well just Different configurations from the A maybe slightly better Pistons as well

The Difference between the 'normal' letter series and the super letter series is the supers have waterpumps.

The H's and The M's and The Super H's And Super M's are the same way, the only differences between letters are pistons and a waterpump makes it a Super Letter Series

The H's and The M's Used A Larger Block (123 Cu In.) While The A's and C's and B's Used A Smaller Block (113 Cu In.)

Believe me on this I made a Pulling Tractor for a friend of mine out of his old Super A by putting Super C pistons into it, seamless transition, it'll purr along with 3 16" plows now.

Check your diagrams if you want I can see first hand i have both and have worked on all

Bowling Green OH, AKA Pull Town USA is 6 miles from My house I have helped rebuild most of our county fair's antique pulling tractors and stock tractors.
"Consistency is not necessarily a good thing,
Especially if you are consistantly wrong"

A wise man once said "What he said"

"Don't Force it, use a bigger hammer"
FarmerFred888
10+ Years
10+ Years
 
Posts: 13
Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:34 am
Location: Portage, OH

123CID?

Postby Tractor Tom » Wed Aug 31, 2005 8:58 pm

Fred, are you testing to see if anyone is awake? Did you mean to say H's & M's had a 123 cid engine? Must be that darn metric system again :?
So many tractors, so little time......
Tractor Tom
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 88
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 7:20 am
Location: Arizona

Postby parts man » Wed Aug 31, 2005 10:35 pm

Fred, like Jim already posted, As, Bs, Cs, and super As all used a 113 engine, super A1s and super Cs had the 123 with a water pump, all came standard with the flat-top pistons, but could be optionally purchased with either the 5000ft altitude or 8000ft altitude higher compression pistons. The HP difference between the super A and the C came from the fact that the super A ran at 1425 RPM, and the C at 1815 RPM, same engine, different HP because different RPMs.
The Hs and Ms always had a water pump, Hs had a 152 engine, super Hs a 164, this is NOT the same block as a 113 or 123! And again came standard with the flat-top pistons, but could be optionally purchased with either the 5000ft altitude or 8000ft altitude higher compression pistons.
I can't find my data book right at the moment, but IIRC, the Ms had a 264 engine, and the superM was slightly larger, again NOT the same as a 113 or 123 block, and again came standard with the flat-top pistons, but could be optionally purchased with either the 5000ft altitude or 8000ft altitude higher compression pistons.
V.P. of T.S.A. (taking stuff apart)
User avatar
parts man
10+ Years
10+ Years
 
Posts: 619
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 9:41 pm
Location: Sussex N.B. Can.

Re: Engine Differences

Postby Dale51 » Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:21 pm

FarmerFred888 wrote:I am repeating this from my post in the Farmall Tractor Sizes Postings

The A's, C's, Super A's, and Super C's used the same basic blocks there were several differences though between them other than the transmissions and treads

The Only Difference between an A and a C is that a C uses a high compression piston, the pistons from a C will go into an A and give it a HP boost, this is what many tractor pullers do to make them run stronger

The only difference between a Super A and a Super C is the same, the pistons are different. The pistons for a Super A and an A are identical and The Pistons for a C and a Super C are identical

a B Uses a the Same Block as well just Different configurations from the A maybe slightly better Pistons as well

The Difference between the 'normal' letter series and the super letter series is the supers have waterpumps.

The H's and The M's and The Super H's And Super M's are the same way, the only differences between letters are pistons and a waterpump makes it a Super Letter Series

The H's and The M's Used A Larger Block (123 Cu In.) While The A's and C's and B's Used A Smaller Block (113 Cu In.)

Believe me on this I made a Pulling Tractor for a friend of mine out of his old Super A by putting Super C pistons into it, seamless transition, it'll purr along with 3 16" plows now.

Check your diagrams if you want I can see first hand i have both and have worked on all

Bowling Green OH, AKA Pull Town USA is 6 miles from My house I have helped rebuild most of our county fair's antique pulling tractors and stock tractors.



Thats not all it will do.
The one we have will run a green 14t bailer with no problem.
It will also run a 9' cut new holland hay bind.
If it's been broken I did it.
If its not broken wait till I touch it.
User avatar
Dale51
10+ Years
10+ Years
 
Posts: 567
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2003 3:39 pm
Location: Wellsville NY

Postby Matt Kirsch » Tue Sep 06, 2005 3:09 pm

Yeah, FarmerFred8888 might want to check his facts.

Hs and Ms had water pumps right from the beginning. They were too large and powerful for the thermosiphon system to work effectively. Too much heat. The main differences between an H/M and a Super version is that the Super has bigger pistons, faster gears, and disk brakes. Later Supers added distributor-drive hydraulics.

C had a C113 engine, thermosiphon, and band brakes. Super C had a C123 engine, water pump, bigger radiator, and disk brakes.

The main difference between the A and Super A is hydraulics. Super As also had a higher-compression engine for a few more horsepower.
Matt Kirsch
10+ Years
10+ Years
 
Posts: 3357
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:04 pm
Location: Rochester, NY
Zip Code: 14559
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Postby bald » Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:26 pm

This all started because my friend has a super A without water pump and mine has a water pump.
Recently bought a Farmall Super A and started buying parts to restore. Have run into a problem/confusion. The serial no. plate is mangled and I can't make out the serial no. or the prefix or suffix. The tractor has hydraulics & everything else a Super A should have...but,
the engine has a water pump. All my reading shows the Super A's were a thermosyphon system (w/o water pump). Thought at first I might have a Super A-1 (last of the Super A's with the larger 123 engines, made in 1954).
However the casting numbers are:
engine: 6/12/W
torque tube: 6/18/W
transmission: 6/7/W
As I read my book, the "W" means cast dates in June 1951 for all.
I suspect that this is a 1951 Super A which has had an engine replacement. That replacement being a Super C, 123 engine. Or maybe, since the casting dates are all the same month, it came from the factory with a special order engine???
The part no. on the engine is 354898 R1. If anyone has access to a Super C parts book, would you check this part no. & see if goes to a 123 engine?
Admit to being a little confused (age related condition) but, hope I have explained this in an understandable fashion.
Note: someone's tag line says that confusion is a higher state than ignorance. Maybe I should be just be happy to have arrived at confusion.
:?
bald
Southeast, Georgia
Another wonderful day in paradise.
'66 IH Cub w/fast hitch and '41 JD LA
User avatar
bald
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:04 pm
Location: Woodbine, , Georgia
Zip Code: 31569
Tractors Owned: 66 IH Cub w/fasthitch and 41 JD LA

Postby Eugene » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:27 pm

Valu-bilt catalog shows a water pump for the A, SuperA, C, 100,130,140,200,230,240 2-bolt.

Years ago I owned a B. My father, a tractor mechanic, told me that I could purchase a water pump for the tractor.

Just adding to the confusion.

Eugene
Eugene
Team Cub Mentor
Team Cub Mentor
 
Posts: 12528
Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
Location: Mo. Linn
Zip Code: 65051
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Wed Sep 07, 2005 8:22 am

I have heard a coup;le times of super C engines being installed in As. The Super C engines used had water pumps.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government
to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the
government lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." Patrick Henry
User avatar
John *.?-!.* cub owner
Team Cub Guide
Team Cub Guide
 
Posts: 19474
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:09 pm
Location: Mo, Potosi
Zip Code: 63664
Tractors Owned: 47, 48, 49 cub plus Wagner loader & other attachments. 41 Farmall H.

Postby Matt Kirsch » Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:39 am

The water pump could have been added at a later time, due to the engine being very finicky. Unless things were perfect, the thermosiphon system didn't work. Water pumps made things much less sensitive, and kept the engine much cooler.
Matt Kirsch
10+ Years
10+ Years
 
Posts: 3357
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:04 pm
Location: Rochester, NY
Zip Code: 14559
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:34 pm

If my memory serves me correctly, (happens ocasionaly), when the water pump was fisrts used on the super c they just reused the thermosyphon block, but ended up with spot heating problmes, and had to redisgn the block to improve the water circulation with the pump added.
"The Constitution is not an instrument for the government
to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the
government lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." Patrick Henry
User avatar
John *.?-!.* cub owner
Team Cub Guide
Team Cub Guide
 
Posts: 19474
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:09 pm
Location: Mo, Potosi
Zip Code: 63664
Tractors Owned: 47, 48, 49 cub plus Wagner loader & other attachments. 41 Farmall H.

Postby bald » Wed Sep 07, 2005 3:58 pm

The part no. on the engine is 354898 R1. If anyone has access to a Super C parts book, would you check this part no. & see if goes to a 123 engine?


Have found one Super C locally and checked the part no. on the engine against the part no. on my Super A engine. They match except that the Super C engine has an R3 suffix vice the R1 suffix on my Super A engine.

Not sure what the R1 & R3 mean unless they are different versions of the same part. :idea:
bald
Southeast Georgia
waiting for Hurricane Ophelia
Another wonderful day in paradise.
'66 IH Cub w/fast hitch and '41 JD LA
User avatar
bald
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:04 pm
Location: Woodbine, , Georgia
Zip Code: 31569
Tractors Owned: 66 IH Cub w/fasthitch and 41 JD LA

Postby Jim Becker » Wed Sep 07, 2005 9:41 pm

R3 is simply the same part with 2 revisions applied. I don't have a reference handy, but agree that your part number is correct for a Super C. HOWEVER, it is also correct for a Super A after some engine number. The Super C block was used with a thicker sleeve, keeping it at 113 ci. From your casting codes, I believe your tractor probably has the original block. If it has been overhauled in the past it could now have a bigger bore than original. A standard Super A will cool adequately with the thermosiphon system, assuming the operator pays the slightest attention to servicing the tractor. Water pumps like the one used on the Super C can be fitted to any C-123 engine if conditions required it.
User avatar
Jim Becker
Team Cub
Team Cub
 
Posts: 11933
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:14 pm
Location: MN
Zip Code: 55319
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y

Postby bald » Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:13 pm

Thanks, Jim. I finally figured out the serial no. of my Super A. Had to take off the seat support, put the plate under a lighted magnifying glass, use different markers to highlight the numbers and finally came up with the number. It is a 1951 which is consistent with the casting codes.
The Super A's with the 123 block were called Super A-1's and were built in 1954. I don't recall the starting serial no. for the A-1's, but they were the last of the Super A's.
The previous owner lives about 50 miles from me and I intend to go back & pump him for some more info and see if he remembers who owned it before him. I enjoy chasing down the history and had good luck doing that on two of my other tractors.
Thanks for the help.
bald
Southeast Georgia
waiting for hurricane Ophelia
Another wonderful day in paradise.
'66 IH Cub w/fast hitch and '41 JD LA
User avatar
bald
5+ Years
5+ Years
 
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2005 9:04 pm
Location: Woodbine, , Georgia
Zip Code: 31569
Tractors Owned: 66 IH Cub w/fasthitch and 41 JD LA

Postby Jim Becker » Wed Sep 07, 2005 10:20 pm

The Super A1 started at serial 356001.
User avatar
Jim Becker
Team Cub
Team Cub
 
Posts: 11933
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 3:14 pm
Location: MN
Zip Code: 55319
Circle of Safety Award
Circle of Safety: Y


Return to Farmall / IH / CASE

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests