question about battery replacement

[marshall]

Hi:

I've got a tractor that has some questionable components: a 12 volt generator but a 6 volt battery on it.

The reason for the mismatch, I suspect, is that the person who sold it was a mechanic who had gotten it through an estate sale and his understanding was that old Farmalls had 6 volt systems and he probably didn't know
the history of this particular tractor and didn't go into it deeply enough to find out. On another thread a few years ago I showed pictures of the generator and people seemed to think this was a 12 volt system
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=83908&p=670571&hilit=marshall#p670571
- unfortunately the pictures seem to be gone from the site but I could repost new ones if anyone wants to see something in particular and I do have a good VOM now but I can't get the tractor running to take readings.

At this point the battery no longer cranks and I have to replace it but I don't know what to buy. I don't think it makes sense to buy another Exide 6 volt battery because the one I had never cranked well.
I think that I should be getting a 12 volt battery but the one (yes, one model) they had at TSC was a much larger battery and would never fit in the battery slot. The TSC guy said to go to an auto parts store, but
I'm guessing I'll get even less knowledgeable help there.

Given how poorly the 6 volt battery performed over the last several years, I'm going to make the assumption that this is a tractor that was correctly converted to a 12 volt system and the mechanic mistakenly put on a 6 volt battery in order to make a sale. Now I just need a recommendation for a battery that
will fit in that 7" x 9" slot and is 12 volts. Something I could find at an autoparts store or mail order. Advice appreciated.

[Eugene]

Red tag on generator means 12 volts. Black tag means 6 volts.

Check the generator before purchasing a battery.

There are other indications that the tractor has been converted to 12 volts; ballast resistor on coil or coil with internal resistor.

[DonMountain]

Have all components of the electrical system been converted to 12 volts: starter, lights, voltage regulator, ignition system/coil? Or did someone just throw a 12 volt generator on it because of a bad battery? If not I would start by putting the correct generator on it, and buying the correct 6 volt battery for it. Or was the Cub originally built with a 12 volt system? What year is it?

[Eugene]

Reading previous posts. 1951 Cub which would have originally been a 6 volt positive ground battery. What happened to the tractor in the past 65 years?????????.

To many unknowns to make a recommendation. Suggest looking over everything electrical system related, make a list of everything. Then diagnose the problem(s) to determine a solution.

While looking over the electrical problems, consider a conversion to a single wire 12 volt alternator. Frequently less expensive than purchasing a voltage regulator and having the generator repaired.

[marshall]

This is a 1950 Cub. I really don't know its history. The farmer who used it died and it was part of an estate. A repair guy did enough to get it going so it could sell. The day I bought it from him 3 years ago the battery barely
started the tractor and he had it trickle charging so I've never witnessed this machine roaring to life with a 6 volt battery. It does start pretty well when jumped off a car.

I don't have a pickup truck or trailer so hauling this tractor around to repair shops or cubfests isn't possible. I'm pretty much on my own with the help of this forum and one guy up the road to keep this thing running.
Worst case I put a new 6 volt battery in this thing and limp along like I have been. But if you can see that this is a legit 12 volt system and can recommend a battery that will fit in that 9 x 7 box then that would be preferred.
I kind of doubt that this is some kind of half-converted system that is going to require me to complete converting to 12 v or take it back to 6v but maybe (assuming there are some pretty well-written guides for newbies)

Here are some pictures I just took to see if you can help me determine what the heck this thing is so I can get the proper battery ( I can't inline the images or they get reduced)
Let me know if there are others needed to make a determination

Generator:
http://rose.cs.umass.edu/dm/20160827_111100.jpg
http://rose.cs.umass.edu/dm/20160827_111146.jpg

Starter motor:
http://rose.cs.umass.edu/dm/20160827_111111.jpg

Frayed wiring (things are connected but do you think I should buy a new set of wires? This looks bad but seems to work OK)
http://rose.cs.umass.edu/dm/20160827_111124.jpg

Bulb being lit by 6 volt batteries:
http://rose.cs.umass.edu/dm/20160827_113708.jpg

[Eugene]

The red tag on the generator says 12 volts.

The starter is probably still 6 volts, but it will work without modification on a 12 volt electrical system.

Electrical wiring can be replaced. Bulk wire from the hardware store and wire terminal ends. You don't need to replace all the wiring, just enough to get the Cub running.

Suggest taking the generator and regulator to a shop and have tested. If good, consider finishing the 12 volt conversion. If bad consider a single wire 12 volt alternator.

Reverting the tractor back to 6 volts is prohibitive, as in really expensive.

The light bulbs will have a number on the base. Internet search will disclose the bulbs working voltage.

[John *.?-!.* cub owner]

I see you still have a magneto, so the comment about resister for ignition does not apply. I am wondering if it still has a 6 volt regulator on it. If so, that would be limiting the 12 volt generator output to 6 volts.

[marshall]

I am wondering if it still has a 6 volt regulator on it

How can we figure that out? Is there a photo of an area that will indicate?

[marshall]

Suggest taking the generator and regulator to a shop and have tested. If good, consider finishing the 12 volt conversion. If bad consider a single wire 12 volt alternator.

The regulator: is that black box on top of the Delco generator? Do I just remove these and bring to a shop? If tests show that it is good, what more needs to be changed out to complete the conversion?
If it is bad, the 12 v alternator is a replacement for the generator+regulator? And nothing else needs to be changed out?

I got the number off the light bulb (1156 LL ) which seems to be 12 volt when I search on this number.

Wish I could read the label on the starting motor so we could see if that was 12 v.

[Jim Becker]

Looks like the original 6-volt starter. Where some of the paint has peeled off, you can see the tag is black. As Eugene already said, you cam leave the 6-volt starter with the rest converted to 12. Once you get the cables in shape, if it won't turn the engine adequately with a good 6-volt battery or quite fast with a 12-volt, the starter itself needs work. 1156 is a common 12-volt bulb (was used as a backup light on many cars). A Delco regulator is usually stamped with an id number in the base but this looks like an aftermarket unit and may not be stamped. Unscrew the regulator from the generator so you can see the bottom side. They are often stamped with the voltage. Since everything else is 12-volt (except the starter), I'll bet on the regulator being 12-volt as well.

[Eugene]

Have both the regulator and generator tested.

Since you have a relatively new 6 volt battery, it should crank over and start the engine. If the engine won't start with a freshly charged 6 volt battery 2 possible problems. Starter needs repaired and or the impulse coupling in the magneto is not working.

Can you hand crank start the engine?

[Denny Clayton]

Worst case I put a new 6 volt battery in this thing and limp along like I have been. But if you can see that this is a legit 12 volt system and can recommend a battery that will fit in that 9 x 7 box then that would be preferred.

If you decide to get a 12 volt battery a Group 26 should fit your box.

[marshall]

Can you hand crank start the engine?

I don't have a crank. I'm starting to think that maybe I should call Steiner and get a crank handle and forget about all this
electrical system stuff. It worked OK for a couple years with a 6 volt battery. It's got a sticker that says 2012 so maybe its just had it.

The regulator doesn't have anything written on it but its clear that its pretty new and since its sitting on top of a generator that is clearly marked as "12 volt" it makes sense that it would be a 12 volt regulator. I rubbed on the tag on the starer motor and got it clear enough to read "Delco Remy" and a serial number but nothing about voltage. And the light bulbs are 12 volt.

So it looks like everything is 12 volt except maybe the starter. Wouldn't it make sense just to buy a 12 volt battery and put it on to see how things work rather than removing all these parts to take them to someone (I don't know who) to test them. If the battery doesn't solve the problem, I can return it and then proceed with all this troubleshooting.

[Eugene]

[Wouldn't it make sense just to buy a 12 volt battery and put it on to see how things work rather than removing all these parts to take them to someone (I don't know who) to test them. If the battery doesn't solve the problem, I can return it and then proceed with all this troubleshooting.

Better ask the auto parts store to see if you can return the battery. Most likely you won't be able to do that unless the battery is faulty. And then only for an adjustment on a faulty battery.

Surely you have vehicles or tractors, perhaps a garden tractor, with a 12 volt battery with battery clamp posts. Battery doesn't have to fit the battery box. You can set the battery on the operator's foot platform to start the tractor and test the electrical system. Once tractor is started, you can test the electrical system with a multi-meter, even the $5- meter from Harbor Freight.

As far as testing the generator and regulator, ask at you local auto parts store. They will know who tests and repairs electrical components.

[regwal]

"I don't have a crank. I'm starting to think that maybe I should call Steiner and get a crank handle and forget about all this electrical system stuff. It worked OK for a couple years with a 6 volt battery. It's got a sticker that says 2012 so maybe its just had it."

Get your crank from a member. Think I got one from Barnyard.