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Question on startup

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dustyrobbins
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Question on startup

Postby dustyrobbins » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:17 pm

Just got my first cub (1948) a couple of days ago and trying to figure out a couple of things on startup.

Q1. Turnover is very sluggish, almost like its on its last gasp. Is this common? I was told that battery was weak so I replaced it. Turnover is still very chuggish.
Q2. Sometimes the engine 'chugging' will turn into a 'whirring' with the fan belt stopping its motion. I have no idea what that is so I would appreciate your insights.
Q3. Seems like the ignition pull lever is not a full on/off. I can play with it a little at in-between stages to get the starter and engine turnover to act a little differently.

After a bunch of attempts over a couple of days, I got it to start. I plan to rebuild the carb and go through a list of things that should help overall but really interested in your thoughts on the above questions. Without a frame of reference, it is a little bit like working in the dark.

Thanks for the help!

Dusty
Last edited by dustyrobbins on Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ScottyD'sdad
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Re: Question on startup

Postby ScottyD'sdad » Wed Dec 16, 2015 7:23 pm

Clean all your electrical connections, and grounds, including the area where the starter enters the engine, and the tractor end of the ground cable. Switch could be worn or dirty.
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smallfarm
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Re: Question on startup

Postby smallfarm » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:22 pm

Something for you to check. 6 or 12v starter? I have seen one tractor that was converted to 12v but sometime later someone put a 6v battery in the box -- everyone knows this is a 6v tractor, so by golly it gets a 6v battery!!!!

Not knowing the tractor's history, have you changed the oil. An old nasty trick is to fill the crankcase with heavy oil to slow oil burn. Makes the tractor seem to be in better condition that it is, but a cold engine with stiff oil is harder to start. Of course, clutch drag can make an engine turn over slow. Adjustment, replacement or even a rats nest built through a missing inspection cover could be the culprit.

On the second part. Sounds like a cylinder or two fired, but the engine didn't "get goin.'" I personally associate this with timing problems (my experience) but there can be several other causes -- as you mentioned carburetor is one.
Make it your ambition to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business and to work with your hands, just as we told you, so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

ScottyD'sdad
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Re: Question on startup

Postby ScottyD'sdad » Wed Dec 16, 2015 8:34 pm

Most 12Volt conversions, use the original 6 volt starter. Turns faster, but isn't harmed by the higher voltage.
Q2, the fan belt could be loose, or the fan stiff, for lack of lubrication.
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Jim Becker
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Re: Question on startup

Postby Jim Becker » Wed Dec 16, 2015 10:24 pm

Question 1: Maybe it isn't turning as fast as it should, maybe it is. 6-volt Cubs (and virtually every 6-volt engine) turn a lot slower than people are accustomed to with modern cars etc. Maybe you can get an idea of what is normal from my crank starting video. The first half is starting with a crank but it is followed by starting a 6-volt then 2 12-volt tractors. You can't hear it much as the engine starts almost immediately. Note the difference between the 6 and 12-volt tractors. If it really is slow, it could be the battery, the starter, the switch, or any cables/connections.



Question 2: Sounds to me like the starter drive is kicking out from the ring gear. Sometimes that is caused by an engine firing and nearly starting. Sometimes a bad Bendix drive (weak drive spring) will cause it.

Question 3: Probably a bad starter switch. It should either be on or off. You can try taking the switch off and cleaning the contacts. This may explain question 1.

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Glen
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Re: Question on startup

Postby Glen » Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:03 pm

Hi,
Besides what was said above, the 6 volt system needs bigger gauge cables to the starter and ground than a 12 volt system. The IH cables I have seen are number 2, but some people use number 1 also.
The starter could be worn out if it is going slower than a 6 volt starter would normally run. They can be rebuilt if the electrical part of them is good. The brushes and bushings wear out from use. It won't work if the brushes are worn down too far.
There is a bushing on each end of the armature shaft. They are pressed into the ends of the case. They can be replaced by the owner, so can the brushes, I have done it before.
If the bushings are worn, the armature will rub on the magnets inside the case. It only takes a little wear on the bushings, the armature runs really close to the magnets. When you take the starter apart, you might be able to see if it is rubbing on the big portion of the armature, it can make marks on the armature.
The commutator end of the armature, that the brushes run on, needs to be cleaned and should be shiny and smooth.
Also the starter drive needs inspecting to see if it is good, and not worn out or something wrong with it, like Jim said above.
Or you can take it to a shop, if you don't want to do it yourself, a shop can test the electrical part of the starter too. :)

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Re: Question on startup

Postby Puffie40 » Thu Dec 17, 2015 10:32 pm

Q1. Turnover is very sluggish, almost like its on its last gasp. Is this common? I was told that battery was weak so I replaced it. Turnover is still very chuggish.
Q2. Sometimes the engine 'chugging' will turn into a 'whirring' with the fan belt stopping its motion. I have no idea what that is so I would appreciate your insights.
Q3. Seems like the ignition pull lever is not a full on/off. I can play with it a little at in-between stages to get the starter and engine turnover to act a little differently.


1. You have a problem, a good 6v system will not sound much different than a good 12v system. The first spot to look is the cables going to the battery.

2. What's happening is the starter pinion was kicked out of engagement and the motor is spinning freely. The usual reason for that is the pinion assembly automatically doing that when the engine flywheel turns a little faster than the starter.

3. The starter rod connects to a switch located on the starter, and the interior of the switch is literally a copper block shorting out two contacts. The differences you are observing suggest the contacts are either dirty or badly eroded from arcing.

6 volt starting systems are a little more finicky with thier connections due to them using more current than 12 volt systems. Checking the wires over for corrosion, cracks in the insulation and cleaning the contact surfaces will be a start.

If you have to replace the battery cables don't get generic 12v battery cables- those cables are generally too small for a 6v application. We have some articles in the how-to section on building a proper set of cables.

dustyrobbins
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Re: Question on startup

Postby dustyrobbins » Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:00 pm

Thank you everyone for you input. I will hopefully get some time this weekend and start digging into the issue with the insight you provided. Have a great day!

Matt Kirsch
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Re: Question on startup

Postby Matt Kirsch » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:09 pm

Odds are your problem is at the "saddle switch" on the starter. Follow the pull rod for the starter, which will lead you to a lever. Follow that lever down and you will find the saddle switch. So named, because it sits on the starter like a saddle sits on a horse.

That comes off with two screws, and underneath you will find a copper lug that is probably pretty badly burned and chewed up. Inside the switch you will find two other copper contacts that are also pretty badly burned and chewed up. Clean the lug on the starter up as best you can with a file. If it is too far gone you will have to take it to a starter shop to be replaced, as it is SOLDERED in. New saddle switches are available from dozens of places on line, or your local tractor supply store in a pinch.

HART
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Re: Question on startup

Postby HART » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:04 pm

Noticed on Jim's great video that when CRANKING the Cub of course the clutch is not held in, but pulling the electric start shows clutch ENGAGED. I thought others have preferred NOT depressing clutch so it turns over faster. What is best ?

bythepond88
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Re: Question on startup

Postby bythepond88 » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:50 pm

Leave your foot off the clutch when starting. Just be sure to "shake hands with the shifter" to ensure she is not in gear.
Michael Cummings
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dustyrobbins
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Re: Question on startup

Postby dustyrobbins » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:18 pm

Swallowing some humble pie, it appears that I connected the new battery backwards not realizing it was a 'positive' ground system. :shock: Besides correcting that and likely needing to polarize the generator, is there anything thing else I need to do? Hopefully I didn't do too much damage.

I expect I will still need to go through the list of things above that others have outlined if starting is still an issue.

bythepond88
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Re: Question on startup

Postby bythepond88 » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:55 pm

Re-polarizing the VR should be all you need to do. I doubt you did any damage.
Michael Cummings
Eddie - a 1959 International Lo-Boy named after my father in law, who who bought her new.


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