Strength of final drive, hubs, wheel dishes and rims??

[JayMil]

Good afternoon guys and gals, I am new here but I am doing some research and I thought this might be the place to get some help since I have had trouble finding this information elsewhere.

To be brief, I am with a manufacturer who is currently working on a agricultural tractor for the small grower. A simple, lower cost tractor that is high quality and made specifically to solve the needs of the small grower with a strong focus on developing nations. Not your traditional compact tractor.

So the question is: Historically, have there been any weaknesses in the Farmall Cub's final drive, hub, wheel dish or rims?

We plan to be able to do a bit more work than the Cub could (a bit more horsepower, weight, and speed).
At this point we do not feel like the 5x4.5 hole pattern on the wheel dish will be strong enough. We have seen a few hubs cracked at the junk yard, but we have not been able to find much information.
We are looking to use the same tire as the Cub as that is still a common tire, but are looking to beef up the rest of the structure.
Is this necessary? Or have these components been solid overall?

A few notes on tractor (all subject to change, as this is early on):
18" of ground clearance straight through
48" wide on center of tires
Ability to go additional 10" on each side with 2" increments, will have extensions available
.5mph to 15mph

There are many challenges as farming has grown increasingly commercial with less suppliers offering anything for small tractors, but we feel the need is there and it is important to help solve as global food production needs to increase greatly over the next couple of decades.

At this point I can't give a lot more information, I hope you understand, but feel free to ask additional questions.
Thank you for taking a look, any advice/insight would be greatly appreciated.
JayMil

[64/67lo-boy]

Jay I can only speak from my own experience with these cubs. I have not see or herd of any issues with the rims hubs craking from use. But if any rim is not bolted and torqued properly, than some kind of failure will occure. I have seen were the implements and draw bar bolts in the inside of the finals has fractured the bolt hole in the finals casting. Not sure if it was due to use of improper bolt/ loose bolt or from sudden stops due to implements catcing on things in the ground. I have a front loader on one of mine along with a bellie mounted grader blade. Never had a problem with wheels/rims, hubs/ or finals, and my tractor is from 1948.

[RaymondDurban]

... So the question is: Historically, have there been any weaknesses in the Farmall Cub's final drive, hub, wheel dish or rims?

The Cub's final drives, rims, dish and hubs are pretty robust for its size, if things are taken care of properly and on a regular basis.
The finals can break if the implements are not tightened properly, and can/have broke due to improper maintenance on the brake drums. If you want something stronger, then think about the bolt pattern on the Super-A. It uses 6 lug bolts with a thicker dish and stronger final drives. The tractor weighs more than a Cub, and has more horsepower, so it might be something closer to what you have in mind.

[Eugene]

I'm with the other Cub owners who have posted. No problems with the final drive, hubs, wheel dishes, etc..

Not knowing where the project is headed, couple of thoughts.

1) Take a look at the older IH built Cub Cadets, particularly the hydrostatic transmission.

2) In the 20s, 30s and 40s, farmers made tractors from truck frames, transmissions, and rear ends.

3) G Allis Chalmers. Couple of other manufacturers made small farm tractors along the same style/design.

Having spent time in the Orient, most farm tractors were of the 2 wheel design. Used for field work, towing produce to market on a trailer, and as the family transportation.

[smallfarm]

HEY! Didn't Mahindra get started by buying a bunch of old Farmall tooling??????

What worked in the 40's through 70's won't work now. The quality of the steel produced overseas is far less than the "nickle" and vanadium steels of old. My brother is an engineer and I probably should ask him, but by my memory, there is only one mill left in the US that makes new steel and almost all of the quality ore we mine goes to China. To be sure, there has been a lot of improvement in QUALITY "specialty" steel, but it is very costly.
In the wholesale nursery industry, we still run a lot of 140's and to a lesser extent cubs. There is a dearth of high clearance one row tractors on the market. It may be worth looking into a high clearance kit for a niche market stateside unless the EPA, OSHA, etc., etc. ......
Just my 3 cents worth.

[JayMil]

Wow, great responses guys!

From the very little I have been able to find, what you guys are saying seems to line up pretty good.
It sounds like if they are taken care of properly, then there have not been any significant issues with the Cub's rims, hubs, final drive. That being said, as a manufacturer, we know how well people don't take care of their equipment properly and we want to play it a little bit safer, especially considering where this may go around the world.

@64/67loboy
Thanks for the note on the finals being able to break if the implement is not tightened properly, we will be sure to address this.

@RaymondDurban
Currently we are looking at a 6x6 design for the lug bolts, and this will take a custom dish but will definitely meet our strength requirements.
Thanks for affirming what 64/67lo-boy said. We will make sure to look at the finals and how they can break due to improper maintenance on the brake drums.

@Eugene
Thanks for your different points.
We have looked a lot at the AC G's and have talked to a lot of owners and seen where a lot of the weaknesses were in the structure. Currently we have 40+ years in hydrostatic transmissions, but we are looking to be mechanical for this for various reasons.
Towing produce to market and using as transportation is a big reason for the ~15mph speed that we currently have. This is key!

@smallfarm
Good question on Mahindra, I do not know and will need to do a bit of digging.
Good points on the steel. Something we have seen ourselves.
What kind of ground clearance do you need? At this point we do have a high clearance kit on our list. We have the components that are needed, but the cost of the specialized tires are pretty expensive.

Thanks again everyone for the responses, this is very valuable. Would appreciate any further feedback or questions.
JayMil

[Eugene]

JayMil:

When the project get to the prototype stage, please post some photos and specifications on this site.

Members of this site include a number of engineers and experts in various disciplines. I am interested to see how the project turns out and assume others on this site would also be interested.

[Smokeycub]

Currently we have 40+ years in hydrostatic transmissions, but we are looking to be mechanical for this for various reasons.Towing produce to market and using as transportation is a big reason for the ~15mph speed that we currently have. This is key!

I agree with the others about the finals, hubs, and rims. I wouldn't discount a hydro transmission. As I'm sure you know they are very versatile as to ground speed and make for an ideal engine speed for the task being performed, unless you're planning a strong gear reduction setup with a four to six speed trans and a two stage clutch for a live PTO.

Good luck with your endeavor! ...and it would be interesting to see you progress and later some pictures!

[JayMil]

JayMil:

When the project get to the prototype stage, please post some photos and specifications on this site.

Members of this site include a number of engineers and experts in various disciplines. I am interested to see how the project turns out and assume others on this site would also be interested.

@Eugene and Smokeycub
Most definitely, at some point in the process we will be ready to post some photos.
We are already at the prototype stage, in fact working on #3, but for various reasons we do not want to divulge some of the information yet. Everyone that we have shown the unit to and discussed the project with so far has signed NDA's. Hopefully we will be past this stage in the near future. I am sure you guys understand.
Have a great weekend all!

[Bus Driver]

John Blue made a similar tractor which was a failure in the sales volume category.

http://www.tractorhouse.com/listingsdet ... ID=7613619

[smallfarm]

Getting a bit off the original topic, but....
John Blue looks a lot like a yellow "HEFTY G". A cultivating tractor that got sold from one area nursery to another --and a few years later to another. When it got to the one where i worked, we took off the cultivators and used it to replace one of the cubs for pulling wagons around the container growing area. Don't know about the overall production, but the one we had wasn't worth it's weight in scrap. Could hardly keep the front end on the ground, and there were major problems with the clutch and "sprocket and chain" flex joint. Hard to get parts for the engine (french i think).

Were John Blue and Hefty G the same?

[dmacarthur]

So a couple of thoughts: I would think that your new tractor would NOT have the bolt-on components like the Cub, and therefore NOT have the attendant stripped bolts and cracked housings. And that it might include a standard PTO and 3 pt hitch- even in the Third World these attachments will become available, and otherwise you need to invent and support a completely new line of equipment. ALso, not sure you need 48" centers, the Cub at 44 is pretty good sized I would think for small food production fields? Best of luck, where can i order one? Oh and yes diesel is mandatory....

[Clark Thompson]

most of the final drive problems with the cub are from abuse, improperly mounted attachments, wrong bolts, loose bolts or not pulling from the drawbar. I have had cubs for over 40 years and have put my working cubs through a lot of tuff work. never broke a final drive or wheel or final gears or hubs. I also have been rebuilding cubs for over 40 years and can say all the broken final drives, wheels and other castings were from abuse.Never seen a broken rear hub or axle.