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Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

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AGrinthal
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Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby AGrinthal » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:30 pm

Ok.. I'm puzzled. this is a complete restore/Rebuild. All back together.. with a new battery AND complete wiring harness (Battery in NEW battery box too). Even the gauges are new (But not the on/off switch or light switch) '52 Cub with coil ignition and 6V system (positive ground)

Here are the symptoms:
1. Pull lever to start you get zippo .. nada.
2. Jumpers to starter from my car to switch on starter and mounting bolt...pull starter link.. turns over. a lot (to be expected from 12V jump ...only did for a second or two.
3. Jumpers (from car) on Cables (remove 6v battery from circuit) by batter (Remember Battery removed) zippo.

At this point I purchased a new battery. With new battery did the following:
4. jumpers (Car jumpers...maybe not thick enough for 6v). on mounting nut and starter switch. Pulled lever.. Starter engaged flywheel (a click).. then zippo.
5. THought it was caught in Flywheel. Removed starter..Gear WAS out. while out of tractor Jumped the starter with cables on new 6v battery.. Off she flew..NO problem.
6. Starter back in tractor. installed new battery with cables (mind you they are brand new). I get a faint click and zippo pulling on starter lever.
7. Place jumper on + Ground and mounting bolt on starter... pull starter lever... starter engages weakly and turns engine about 1/4 turn stops... and some smoke from starter (removed jumper REAL quick)

Ok I'm at a loss... seems to be a grounding issue. I have the thick braided flat tail for the ground to the battey box. The box is BRAND NEW (high end). Do I need to strip paint around the end of the pig tail where it bolts to the box? ALl my bolts are 316SS (anal I know, I know) but that shouldn't make a difference.

Engine is not locked or jammed..no problem hand cranking.

I'm confused? any suggestions? is The starter toast? It did work before I did the rebuild (I rebuilt due to no compression in two cyclinders (hung valves...good excuse to do a restore :-). Do I need a new starter? I did paint the starter (ALL OF IT).. meaning even the top button the leaver pushes in.. but that doesn't matter does it? (I read some posts that that button needs to be all shiny and bright.. why I'm not sure.. but mine Is gloss black.)

Would welcome any comments...Thanks! I want to use my two year restoration project in the fields this spring!

Andy
Andover, NJ

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Dale Finch
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Re: Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby Dale Finch » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:38 pm

Did you also paint the area where the starter bolts to the tractor? Both surfaces need to be bare, since that is where it gets its ground...through the tractor itself. Make sure the rear surface of the starter and the mating surface of the tractor are both bear of paint and clean of dirt and oil, before you "remate" them. MAYBE it will be as simple as that...? Good luck!

Also, Make sure ALL connections are bright and shiny, and feel the ends of the battery cables to see if they are hot.
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Re: Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby tst » Sat Mar 22, 2014 8:16 pm

If you have all good clean connections check the switch on top of the starter, make sure you have full battery voltage at the starter switch, the switched can get "burned" on the inside, some times you can remove switch and clean the contacts on the starter and switch
Tim

AGrinthal
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Re: Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby AGrinthal » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:33 pm

Dale...really? I figured the bolt was enough of a ground. I took the entire thing apart, sandblasted, primed and painted and then re-assembled... so I do have at LEAST a layer of primer and red paint (perhaps) on the mating surfaces. I will take the starter back off and get a dremel took and wire brush them clean. I wonder if that's the issue on the battery box. I got a restoration quality pre painted battery box... and the ground is on the side. I have a brand new flat weave ground strap. maybe I need to wire brush the box hole where the ground is made too?

I just find it odd.. that I can't jump the starter... the only thing I can think is because I'm using 12V jumper cables with pretty crappy alligator jaws... They work fine from 12V battery on car to the starter but nothing when you do it with the new 6V battery.

Also I Did check and I have 6V at the starter switch. so that's ok. My switch is painted black but that's the outside so I can't see how that's an issue.

Since I owned it I only had it started about twice before I lost compression in two cylinders and tore it down for a rebuild. (an excuse to make it pretty). It wasn't a good cranker...but maybe that's because the battery was shot (now I have a new one).

Let me hit all the connections with a wire wheel and see what happens... I want to get the thing running. Spring is on the way. (It failed as a snow shovel this winter already!)

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Re: Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby tmays » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:11 pm

The bolt is enough ground IF threads are clean and there's good connection under the bolt head. Can't hurt to do the things Dale suggested. Painting can create a problem when it comes to electrical connections
Thomas

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Dale Finch
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Re: Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby Dale Finch » Sun Mar 23, 2014 6:51 am

Removing paint on the entire mating surface MAY be overkill, but can't hurt, in my opinion.

Cleaning the battery box ground bolt area of paint is good, but don't forget that the box itself needs to make good contact with the platform for ground continuity. If the box and bolts and bolt holes all have nice coats of primer and paint, you can have a lot of resistance adding up with voltage loss/ high resistance (low current flow). Every little bit hurts, especially with the 6v systems.

That may be why these tractors were assembled and THEN painted...they need to be "one piece" of metal to have electrical continuity from front (headlights) to rear (tail lights) and everything in between. This may not be your entire problem, but it could be contributing.
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Re: Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby Barnyard » Sun Mar 23, 2014 7:05 am

AGrinthal wrote:Also I Did check and I have 6V at the starter switch.

If you are getting that, then you are grounded at the battery box. But at least remove the paint at the starter mount as has been said to see if that is all you need.
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AGrinthal
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Re: Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby AGrinthal » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:07 am

I get 6V at the starter switch with the other end of the meter on the battery. Shouldn't I be getting 6V with the meter on a the mounting bolt by the starter? IF I don't get it there.. then I DO have a grounding issue at the starter no?
I will strip away paint. as both the starter and mating part on tractor were primed and painted. Also I'm using 316SS bolts and these were coated with Anti-Seize which DID ooze out and fill in between the body of tractor and starter flange. I cleaned that off.. but didn't scrape off paint/primer.

Will try suggestions above (unfortunately.. winter returned today...and its nasty in the garage again!).

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Re: Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby Barnyard » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:17 am

AGrinthal wrote:I get 6V at the starter switch with the other end of the meter on the battery. Shouldn't I be getting 6V with the meter on a the mounting bolt by the starter?

Assuming you are using + ground. Put one end of the meter on the + side of the battery and the other on the nut on the switch. You should have 6v. Put the meter on the - side of the battery and the starter mount and you should get 6v. Since you are getting power froM the battery to the switch, then you have a ground at the starter problem.

When you put the meter on the - side of the battery are you getting power at the starter mount?
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Re: Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby Jim Becker » Sun Mar 23, 2014 11:25 am

Connect one end of the meter on the + terminal of the battery (NOT THE CLAMP) and the other one directly on the main frame of the starter. It should read 0 volts. While maintaining those connections, engage the starter. The meter should continue to read zero or very near zero. If it reads anything more than a nominal amount, you have a bad ground somewhere. Move the clip from the starter frame towards the battery ( on the bell housing, transmission case, battery box, chassis end of ground strap, etc.) until you no longer get a reading. When the reading goes away, you have passed the bad connection.

If the ground is good, use the same technique on the hot side of the battery and circuit, looking for the change from 6 volts to whatever lower voltage you read at the lug on the starter.

AGrinthal
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Re: Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby AGrinthal » Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:52 am

Thanks guys. Weather got tolerable again so I was back in the garage. I traced my problem back to the battery box. As I said this was a new "Restoration Quality" box that was painted when I got it plus I gave it another coat so it matched my paint exactly. I took a dremel tool and grinded the box at the flat ground strap connection till the hole was shiny and about 1/4 inch all around it on the inside (can't see that with the lid on). I hooked up the battery OUTSIDE the box. I started first with making sure I was reading 6V with the meter on the - Terminal and touching the Ground strap and then the bolts on the bottom of the battery box. This time I got 6V. Next I did the tests suggested above and this time I got the correct readings.

After that I took a demel tool and ground off the paint around the INSIDE of the starter mounting flange around the bolt holes and on the tractor (a bit painful to actually scrape away paint after so much effort to put it on there!). After that I took a wire wheel and cleaned the starter connection bolt, base and washer. With the battery STILL out of the box but connected (had just enough length on both wires to connect outside the box) I then lifted the starting leaver on the starter and she cranked over nice and strong. (No oil pressure reading though... I guess you have to be at full tilt for that.. just a concern as this is a complete tear down and rebuild I want to make sure the oil is circulating!).

Next I will make sure the lights work before I re-attach the dashboard. Getting closer to "Lift Off"

Just want to say thanks for the advice... and how much help this site has been through out my Cubs rehabilitation. I've gotten a lot of great advice and direction from this forum. Hopefully my cub will be out playing in the dirt by Memorial Day (as long as it doesn't get TOOOO dirty..since she's looking REALLY good). I have an acre of Asparagus to plant and my wife runs a community garden on our 20 acres.

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Re: Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby tmays » Sat Mar 29, 2014 11:55 am

Prime the oil pump before you try her again
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Re: Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby Hoyt-Clagwell » Sun Mar 30, 2014 10:42 pm

Picks? Glad you got it running again. Maybe we'll see it at the Sussex County Fair this year? Saw a cub up there a few years ago that took my breath away (or maybe that was just the cow manure). ;)

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Re: Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby bythepond88 » Mon Mar 31, 2014 10:23 am

AGrinthal wrote:No oil pressure reading though... I guess you have to be at full tilt for that


To check the oil pump, pull the cover off. Then, with the ignition off, crank her over. You should see oil coming out of a hole near the top of the filter compartment on the block side. If you do, then you should be OK. Because the pump has to fill the oil filter compartment first, it may take a bit before you see pressure on the gauge.
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Re: Starter won't turn... Bad Ground?

Postby Matt Kirsch » Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:46 pm

It takes 15-30 seconds with the engine running for oil pressure to build on both my Cubs, depending on the weather.


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