Rudi - (?)s on your electrolisis tank

[Shopp'n Cubs]

Hey Rudi, (and others) hope all is well.

I just re-read your artical on your tank. I would like to make one about that size as well. I too have a blade that needs a LOT of clean-up.

What are you using for a power source? All I have is a small charger (6/10). Well that work?

Does the process help loosen stuck bolts/nuts as well?

Any other info anyone has would be great!

Guy

[johnbron]

I would say yes to all your questions. I am using the same volt & amp charger as you mentioned here is some info that should help you.



Subject: RUST-INSTRUCTIONS

_________Make It Work________
  1. Put on your rubber gloves and wash your tool in warm soapy water and make sure to remove any grease or oil. These areas will not be de-rusted effectively if not thoroughly cleaned.
2. Fill your vat with the appropriate amount of water and add 1 tablespoon of your "Washing or Baking Soda" per gallon of water.
3. Clip the "positive" red lead of your battery charger to the object you've chosen for an anode and place to the side or at one end of your vat. It is not necessary that the anode be fully covered by the water but the more surface area that is available for the electrolysis to faster the process proceeds. Try to keep the red clip from your battery charger out of the solution to avoid it being eroded away with the anode.
4. For your first trial use an old junk tool or piece of metal. Clip the "negative" black lead of your battery charger to your iron tool to be cleaned and place it in the vat. Be certain that you have a nice tight grip on the tool with the black "negative" clip. Make sure the tool is fully covered by the water. So far I've not experienced a problem with allowing the black clip to be immersed in the solution. My clip remains intact and undamaged.
(TIP) The tool should have a clear "line of sight" path to your anode. If the tool is large you may have to turn the tool occasionally to de-rust it evenly and completely. If your anode is a cookie sheet or something similar you can bend it into a shape that will conform to the shape of the tool being cleaned or the contour of your vat for faster operation. The tool should be fully submerged at all times.
5. Check that the tool and the anode are not touching and have about 2 inches or more separation between them. If placed too close together the current on your charger will be higher than expected.
6. Set the battery charger to its highest setting. Plug in your battery charger and note the amount of current indicated on the ammeter. There is no right or wrong amperage except that you must not exceed the rating of your battery charger. Once you have applied power don't put your hands in the vat. Always turn off the power before attempting to check your tool or make adjustments to your system.
7. You will begin to see bubbles form on the tool and rise to the top. Congratulations, you're in business.
(TIP) A note about the gasses released during the process. Small amounts of hydrogen are released as a result of the electrolysis. You will notice while using your system just how small this amount of gas is. However to avoid a concentration of hydrogen, never cover the vat while in use. Although minute this hydrogen is flammable and I would not operate the vat next to your water heater, stove or other open flame.
8. Once the rust has turned to a dark gray or black it's time to remove the tool and wash it in warm soapy water using the Scotch Brite pad to remove the residue. If the tool comes completely clean you're done. If not, place it back in the vat for another session. Dry your tool thoroughly and proceed to the next step.
9. A freshly electro-cleaned tool will immediately began to rust again so it is important that you immediately treat your tool with your choice of wax or oils.
Trouble Shooting and Things to Watch For
If a brown or green "crud" begins to form and float to the top around the anode this perfectly normal. For as long as the anode lasts you will need to occasionally remove it and clean off the crud that forms on it. A putty knife works well for this.
If your tool is painted or japanned do not leave it in the electrolysis vat any longer than necessary to achieve your goal. If the japanning is in poor condition it can start to turn loose if left for say, overnight. Unless heavily rusted most tools clean up in about two hours. If your tool has loose or moving parts to it you need to be sure they are securely attached "electrically" so they will cleanup with the rest of the tool.
There are several tricks to assuring a good electrical contact of moving parts.
1. Wrap a rubber band around the tool and the moving part to make a tighter connection.
2. Wedge a paper clip or other small object into the joint or hinge of a moving part to tighten the physical and thus the electrical connection.
3. Attach a clip lead ($2.99 from Radio Shack) or similar wire to the tool and the moving part to make a good electrical connection between them.
4. Use your imagination.
If the current is too high and taxes your battery charger, here are a few things you can try.
 
1. Increase the distance between the anode and your tool being cleaned.
2. Reduce the amount of anode in the vat. Lift it out slightly.
3. Reduce the operating voltage or increase the current range of the battery charger setting.
If you don't see an immediate reaction beginning in the vat when you plug in the battery charger, check all of your connections carefully. It can be difficult to get a good electrical connection on a heavily rusted tool. This is where the ammeter on your battery charger comes in handy. You can tell at a glance if you have a good connection to the tool. The bubbling action should start immediately after power is applied. If the tool in your vat appears to be eroding instead of de-rusting verify that you have the battery charger polarity correct. The tool must always be connected to the "negative" black terminal. On your first attempt I urge you to use a piece of scrap iron or other insignificant item to get the feel of how the system works. If you have a lot of cleaning to do and want to rev up your vat, try using a larger vat, place anodes on all sides of the vat and connect them all together to the positive (red) lead of your battery charger. Be sure your tool never comes into direct contact with the anodes while power is applied or you run the risk of damaging your battery charger.
For anode material I shop the flea markets and second hand stores. I buy up all of their loose stainless steel pan lids for about 25 cents a piece or less. These can be flattened, cut, bent or mangled for any configuration. If stainless steel is not available an old baking sheet or similar iron or steel object will work well. It simply deteriorates faster.
Nothing much changes at the cathode...but at the anode, chlorine is oxidized...that is, each chlorine ion donates an electron to the iron...thereby becoming a chlorine atom. Chlorine atoms combine to form chlorine gas (Cl2).
**Caution** Chlorine gas...in addition to being poisonous...facilitates combustion...just like oxygen. If you must use sodium chloride...use precautions. Make certain you have plenty of air circulation in a large environment. Don't take chances...it's far better to be safe...than sorry.

[beaconlight]

Johnbron you cover the waterfront and quite well!!

Bill

[Russ Leggitt]

Hi Shopp'n cubs,

Johnbron covered the subject well. There is only one area that
m-u-c-h experience has taught me. If you have a large piece
such as a fender or an emplement or part that has loose parts, ie,
bolts or say a chain; take some no. 12 awg electrical wire [I use scrap
wire from electricians] and put alligator clips on each end and use
as jumper wires to connect the loose parts or on two or three places
on a large piece. Just clip one end to the "Black" lead from the charger
and the other end where ever. This way each loose part is at the same
electrical potential and on larger pieces you get around the issue of
resistance.

Hope this helps some.

RussL

[Rudi]

Guy:

The answer is yest to the 6/10 amp battery charger. That is the size I use. All I can afford for now.

As for the small nuts and bolts. I have a basket being made for just that purpose to fit inside of a 5 gallon plastic Oil pail.

As for the small parts, I usually bolt them to the chain in the tank, or add another length of chain (any conductor will do) that will be sufficient to add all the parts to.

I am looking forward to trying out my new basket when it is done and I can get back to the shop.

Hope that helps

[Mac from NS]

I was wondering about that myself,thank for all the info

[Shopp'n Cubs]

Thanks Guys!!
Johnbron, that is the a whole lotta great info. Thankye

Now I need to track downall the stuff.

Guy

[Peter S]

I thought that I read someplace that stainless steel for an anode is a poor choice due to the fact that as it breaks down it causes the solution to become extremely poisonous and a hazadous waste.

[johnbron]

I thought that causes the solution to become extremely poisonous and a hazadous waste.

I have also read that but it may apply to the quality of the S/S. I have used S/S and my plants & lawn seem to thrive on the liquid remains. (TreeHuggersHateMe)

[Buzzard Wing]

JohnBron.,

Noticed you are flying the Brazilian flag.

But, i do have a question about stainless.

Does it work better than iron?? I have been using rebar and am not too thrilled about paying for it either (Been looking for construction sites, but not too busy around here now at the moment)

Thanks

[johnbron]

Hey B.W., Thats not the Brazilian flag. Thats the flag of the state of washington. I change flags often as my mind travels through the states.


The stainless lasts longer cause it dont rust and is easier to clean. I have never used rebar. I like wider material so mostly I have been using those large metal turkey serving platters and I pay 25¢ each for them at the thrift store in town. They work great for me and they are CHEAP like me.

[artc]

i find that if i scrape my anodes daily (as i'm using some flat bars with holes that were part of a hay rail system in barn or silos, i'm told) and hose them off regularly, things work fine. haven't tried SS.

but i've stopped any scrubbing of parts, i simply hose off the part and leave the black on there. seems like there's no new rust that way. then every part to the sand blaster, and primer soon after. of course, i'm lucky that son Dave has a blaster cabinet, but you could do the same with a wire brush and prime immediaty, i would think.

oh, i noticed it said

2. Fill your vat with the appropriate amount of water and add 1 tablespoon of your "Washing or Baking Soda" per gallon of water.

i was under the impression that sodium carbonate (washing soda) or TSP (tri sodium phosphate) have a free O atom to make the process work. Baking soda is sodium BI-carbonate and won't work. am i mistaken?

[johnbron]

Art I have never used baking soda. I have always used Arm&Hammer washing soda and it works good for me. I have read that baking soda can be used but is not as effective. I think the washing soda is a better aid to removing paint.

[Dan England]

I use baking soda and it works well. I have read that washing soda works better but I have not tried it. Most stores where we shop have baking soda but usually not washing soda. Dan

[Rudi]

Dan:

TSP is much cheaper and much more effective than Baking Soda. TSP is available at Walmart, Home Depot, Pep Boys and pretty any building supply or paint store. Try it, you will never go back to Baking Soda ever.....