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Postby 400lbsonacubseatspring » Mon Nov 27, 2006 7:52 pm

Ehhhhhh,

I don't think that Hexavalent Chromium is a likely biproduct of electrolysis.

Firstly, if we follow the concept, the parts to be cleaned lose mass, whereas, the electrodes we are using as anodes actually gain mass......none of the stainless is dissolved by process of electrolysis.....now, some of it is dissolved by virtue of the caustic solution, no doubt. These compounds, however, should be chromates, and not hexavalent chromium.

If you have a city sewerage system, I do believe it would be quite safe to dump your efflux from stainless annodes right down the drain. The concentrations (if any are present) would not be of any serious level.

No one wants chromium of any type in their groundwater, however, so dumping it onto open soil, or into your septic system is probably not a good idea.

BigHoss.....

Copper would work fine if what you were trying to clean up was bronze, copper, or brass. Since it is iron and steel that you are cleaning, however, one needs to use iron or steel anodes.

You should see how electrolysis works for cleaning up old bronze cannons from shipwrecks....... takes that nasty sea-crud right off!! Those boys use copper pipe anodes.
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Postby Psycho » Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:53 pm

How about galvanized ground rods? I'm going to set up a tank soon, and have access to the rods. Will the galvanizing hurt the process?
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Postby Mike in NC » Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:12 pm

OK guys, I sure am not a chemist. The chains I use to hold parts in the barrel are real shiny. You know the kind they sell at the hardward store. They don't cost much so I assume they're not stainless, but they could be chromed. Is this the same hazadous stuff as they use in stainless? I sure don't want to poison myself while having fun. Thanks as always!
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Postby Rudi » Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:16 pm

Bob:

I am no expert.. by any stretch.. but I have learned a few things.

1. I do not use stainless period in the tank.. whether hexavalent or whatever is a involved.. and in the production of Stainless Steel.. chromium is required..
2. Galvanized.. I was always told by welders, sheet metal workers as well as my Father-in-law and brother-in-law, never weld galvanized.. and by extension, I would not use it in the tank.. again it would be the zinc that would concern me I think.

3. now, I am wondering what if electroplating somehow occured???

Oh, boy :shock: :roll: :shock: down the slippery slope I am going... :lol:

Either way, as I have said before again and again.. use re-bar, TSP and a cheap charger in a plastic barrell. Can't get much simpler than that.. and we know it works... pretty safely. Everything else is just clouding the issue I think. Oh and make sure you use the tank in a WELL VENTILATED AREA :!: :!: :!:
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Postby Donny M » Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:58 pm

Racing and hunting madden the mind, Tom. In your case maybe it's this electrolysis thread :wink: :lol: :lol:
8)
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Postby Jim Becker » Tue Nov 28, 2006 12:06 am

400lbsonacubseatspring wrote:Firstly, if we follow the concept, the parts to be cleaned lose mass, whereas, the electrodes we are using as anodes actually gain mass......none of the stainless is dissolved by process of electrolysis

If you have a city sewerage system, I do believe it would be quite safe to dump your efflux from stainless annodes right down the drain. The concentrations (if any are present) would not be of any serious level.

No one wants chromium of any type in their groundwater, however, so dumping it onto open soil, or into your septic system is probably not a good idea.

That is absolutely not correct. Material is removed from the anode, hence the phrase "sacrificial anode". The anode has a positive charge, thus positive valence ions come off of the anode. Anyone that has done much of this has certainly seen the results on their anodes -- they rust away. The crud that accumulates on the anodes is the result of the negatively charged material coming out of the solution.

As far as dumping it in a city sewer system goes, where do you think that stuff goes??? You might as well cut out the middle man and dump it directly into the ground water. Sewer treatment plants do not remove metal compounds.
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Postby 400lbsonacubseatspring » Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:11 am

Donny M wrote:Racing and hunting madden the mind, Tom. In your case maybe it's this electrolysis thread :wink: :lol: :lol:
8)


Many things madden the mind, Donster.......alas, this is one of the lesser ones........... :D

I am starting to believe that I should keep my delusions to myself, and let everyone else have theirs as well, however.........

Besides....having Jim condescend to me is one of life's simple pleasures... :D :D :D
Last edited by 400lbsonacubseatspring on Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:11 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 400lbsonacubseatspring » Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:42 am

From various sources....

Chromium metal and chromium(III) compounds are not usually considered health hazards, but hexavalent chromium (chromium VI) compounds can be toxic if orally ingested or inhaled. The lethal dose of poisonous chromium (VI) compounds is about one half teaspoon of material. Most chromium (VI) compounds are irritating to eyes, skin and mucous membranes. Chronic exposure to chromium (VI) compounds can cause permanent eye injury, unless properly treated. Chromium(VI) is an established human carcinogen. An investigation into hexavalent chromium release into drinking water formed the plot of the motion picture Erin Brockovich.

World Health Organization recommended maximum allowable concentration in drinking water for chromium (VI) is 0.05 milligrams per liter.

As chromium compounds were used in dyes and paints and the tanning of leather, these compounds are often found in soil and groundwater at abandoned industrial site, now needing environmental cleanup and remediation per the treatment of brownfield land. Primer paint containing hexavalent chromium is still widely used for aerospace and automobile refinishing applications.


Trivalent chromium (Cr(III), or Cr3+) is required in trace amounts for sugar metabolism in humans, and its deficiency can cause chromium deficiency.


The metal chromium, which is the chromium(0) form, is used for making steel. Chromium(VI) and chromium(III) are used for chrome plating, dyes and pigments, leather tanning, and wood preserving.


hexavalent chromium is given off when stainless steel is cast, welded, or torch cut


Here is a link, which evidently states unequivocally that stainless does NOT contain hexavalent chromium....

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:W01iOkb7xiAJ:www.ssina.com/pdfs/hex_chrome_2006.ppt+hexavalent+chromium+in+stainless+steel&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=4&client=firefox-a

Finally, your own common sense should tell you that stainless does not contain hexavalent chromium....we use it for milk tankers, dining utensils, commercial countertops, sinks, and all manner of food-safe articles.... If hexavalent chromium were a part of these constructs, we wouldn't be using them, now would we??

This is the typical nonsense that one hears about a product that is considered in one form to be unsafe, and suddenly, everything that contains the word "chromium" is to blame for all sorts of ills. In short, non-hexavalent Chromium is by and large, and for the most part, completely benign.

And Jim, you obviously have a different definition of groundwater than I do....either that, or it must be common in your area to pump sewer treatment facility efflux into deep wells.

And yes, treatment facilities are "supposed" to test water for heavy metals, including chromium, and deal with it appropriately. Considering the vast number of communities that still have lead in their soil piping, lead is a serious concern for many in my area. Lead treatment is very common here, as is mercury, and several others.

Efflux from municipal sewer treatment plants in this part of Pennsylvania must exit to streams and rivers, which, ultimately, I do not consider to be "ground water"....... If we did not treat for lead and other metals, the soil piping in the centuries-old homes from Northeastern PA would absolutely pollute the Susquehanna, and ultimately the Chesapeake.
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Postby Donny M » Tue Nov 28, 2006 1:54 pm

Taken from finishing.com;

"Feb 10, 2005

You might well be able to get hex chrome from the surface of parts that have been plated then chromated, but there's no way that you can get hex chrome from stainless steel. The realities of physics and chemistry shouldn't be ignored - why waste time and money testing for something that cannot possibly be there?

Bill Reynolds
Tasmet Systems - Melbourne, Victoria, Australia"


It seems that the electrolysis rust removal sites have over exaggerated the problem. Couldn't prove it by me as the only chemistry I know is mine and Merry's match very well :wink:

Tom, here is the full verse;

The five colors blind the eyes.
The five tones deafen the ears.
The five flavors dull the taste.
Racing and hunting madden the mind.
Therefore, sages emphasize health, not pleasure.
Choose this, let go of that.

Not that I'm a sage but, my thought was to emphasize health :shock: It also seemed to me that using stainless in an electrolysis tank was a pleasure, disregarding health. Seems it's mute now :wink:
8)
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Postby 400lbsonacubseatspring » Tue Nov 28, 2006 3:08 pm

Donster,

Thank you kindly......

A very Buddhist philosophy...... :D

Especially coming from Sam Clemens himself!!!

:D :D :D
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Postby Mike in NC » Tue Nov 28, 2006 8:30 pm

Now you all have me really nervous. I don't use stainless for my "cooker", but the part about chains that have been chromed appears to be a problem. I use the cheap but shiny chains that you buy in hardware stores to hold my parts in the tub. I use them cause they don't rust. 1. Are these chromed? 2. Am I killing myself by using these chains to attach my negative charger cable to?

Another unhappy thought - these old tractors were originally painted with lead paint. When we dump the electrolyte as "fertilizer" are we dumping lead into our ground water? Geez guys, if we keep this up I'm going back to scraping the rust off.

Your thoughts are always appreciated.

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Postby Donny M » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:01 pm

Mike,

I'll bet the chain is cad plated not chrome. Cadmium has it's own problems :lol:
I'm wondering if you're getting the most out of your tank using chain as an anode. I would think that the lack of contact between links would have an adverse on the process. The contact would deteriorate with use and, the collection of rust on the chain.
Just a thought.
8)
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Postby Jim Becker » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:24 pm

400lbsonacubseatspring wrote:Here is a link, which evidently states unequivocally that stainless does NOT contain hexavalent chromium....

And Jim, you obviously have a different definition of groundwater than I do....either that, or it must be common in your area to pump sewer treatment facility efflux into deep wells.

And yes, treatment facilities are "supposed" to test water for heavy metals, including chromium, and deal with it appropriately. Considering the vast number of communities that still have lead in their soil piping, lead is a serious concern for many in my area. Lead treatment is very common here, as is mercury, and several others.

Efflux from municipal sewer treatment plants in this part of Pennsylvania must exit to streams and rivers, which, ultimately, I do not consider to be "ground water"....... If we did not treat for lead and other metals, the soil piping in the centuries-old homes from Northeastern PA would absolutely pollute the Susquehanna, and ultimately the Chesapeake.

I don't think anyone said stainless steel CONTAINS hexavalent chromium. What HAS been said is that a chemical process (changing elements and compounds from one form to another) might create hexavalent chromium from the chromium that is in stainless steel. A derusting tank will definitely force chromium ions off of the stainless steel. I don't know whether they will be valence 2, 3, 6 or some combination. The benefit of using stainless steel anodes is so slight, why take the risk?

Where do you think ground water comes from?? the tooth fairy?? Maybe you should check on your local ground water:

http://pa.water.usgs.gov/recharge/

Municipal sewer traetment plants test for metals and not only do they deal with it appropriately, they deal with it quickly. They track it back to the source and shut off the sewer connection of anyone that is dumping it. Sources of wastewater that is contaminated with metals are required to remove it themselves before discharging into the system.

http://cfpub.epa.gov/npdes/home.cfm?program_id=3
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Postby Rudi » Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:15 pm

Mike in NC wrote:Now you all have me really nervous. I don't use stainless for my "cooker", but the part about chains that have been chromed appears to be a problem. I use the cheap but shiny chains that you buy in hardware stores to hold my parts in the tub. I use them cause they don't rust. 1. Are these chromed? 2. Am I killing myself by using these chains to attach my negative charger cable to?

Another unhappy thought - these old tractors were originally painted with lead paint. When we dump the electrolyte as "fertilizer" are we dumping lead into our ground water? Geez guys, if we keep this up I'm going back to scraping the rust off.

Your thoughts are always appreciated.

Mike


Mike:

I repeat:

Either way, as I have said before again and again.. use re-bar, TSP and a cheap charger in a plastic barrell. Can't get much simpler than that.. and we know it works... pretty safely. Everything else is just clouding the issue I think. Oh and make sure you use the tank in a WELL VENTILATED AREA :!: :!: :!:

I use the chain, shiny, dull, slightly rustedand it works perfectly for me... all you gotta do is clean it. Use a hunk of flat bar with holes in it as well -- which might provide better contact.. will try that later.

Gee........ this is getting a bit carried away.

Lead content would be no more than what is naturally occuring in many soils.. (Prospecting 101 people!)... just don't chew on it...

Jim, bingo... :!:
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Postby 400lbsonacubseatspring » Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:39 am

Jim Becker wrote:Where do you think ground water comes from?? the tooth fairy?? Maybe you should check on your local ground water:




Ah, Jim......I consider you to be a Precious Jewel........

And here is the reason:

From Shantideva, an 8th Century Indian Philosopher:
There is nothing that does not become easier with familiarity.
Not wishing to suffer the full weight of great harm,
is it not better to become familiar with small harms,
So that when greater harm comes, it will be easier?


An old tale goes something like this:
A student of Aristotle was told by his master to go out among the people of the world for 3 years, and each time someone insulted him, he was to pay them, then return to Athens.

Finally, his task was completed. At the gates of Athens, was an old man, insulting every person who entered the city. When the student approached the old man, the old man insulted him. The student began laughing hysterically.

"Why do you laugh, when I have just insulted you?" asked the old man.

"Well, for 3 years, I've been paying for this sort of thing, and you've just given it to me for free!!"


Jim, I live on the side of a mountain, as does everyone around here. We get our water from deep wells. The aquifer drains to the streams and rivers, not the other way around, as it might in the case of flatlanders.

The ground, and running streams, for that matter, are marvelous filters and neutralizers of all matter of things. Bear in mind that the Schuylkill, which provides the drinking water of Philadelphia, starts off as toxic coal mine run-off, for the first 10 miles, then the output of several sewer treatment plants are added to it, until finally, about 30 miles downstream of the headwaters, there are signs of life.

Please, everyone, disregard all that I have said on this topic, I bow to greater will, and when you get right down to it....most of you have greater will than I....

And now, I'm off to watch out my upstairs windows, for the tooth fairy to come and put more water into my well. Although it is my understanding that he only brings fluorinated water...... Maybe I'll get a shower, but wait.....I've a sacrificial anode in my water heater, and some of my fixture piping is stainless. Oh my oh my..... :cry: :cry:
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