Problem starting my Cub

[boldpsi]

Ladies and Gents,
I've had Cub 253598 for roughly 20 years. It always had a starter problem; when the starter button was pushed, it would whine or whir, then when released and repressed, it would normally start. Presumably this was being caused by the starter needing to be rebuilt; theoretically the bendix was not fully extending and meshing with the ring gear.
So... I called around and found i could get a rebuilt starter for around $200 delivered. But first, I wanted to buy local, and second, I wanted it faster So, I bought local and it cost me $300, but I paid it since John at Atlas Electric diagnosed it right in front of me, explained the history of the starter beginning with Mr. Bendix from nearby Elmira, NY. Then he promised to have it done in 2 days! I bit.
Sure enough 2 days later, it was done! I was happy!
However when I reinstslled it, now, when the starter is pushed... I get nothing but a loud click from under the floorboard. Battery is brand new, used only 5 times to start it the old way b4 the rebuild. 12v system. One of the last 100 Cubs made.
So, naturally I came here to edumacate myself! Read all the starter-related posts I could. Went to the Cub and removed the battery box, cleaned the ground cable up, reattached it, same result, tried jumping it figuring I had drained the brand new battery somehow, with same loud click result.
There doesn't seem to be a "clutch pedal switch", but clearly some of the wiring and the little "black relay thingy with the push-button on it under the floorboard" has been replaced. The loud click emanates from this relay/switch, because I simultaneously pressed the starter button and the push-button thing on it, and definitely felt the click coming from there.
So... I know in a nooob... But snow is coming to upstate NY, in 60, and I ain't shoveling another winter's worth of snow in Syracuse!!!
Help!
Love, Dave

[tst]

starter solenoid/relay is under the floor, they do go bad or make sure all the connections are clean and tight, will cause the same symptom

[boldpsi]

Would the rebuilding of the starter cause the solenoid to go bad? Like, instantly? It is kinda greasy around the whole area. Just don't know what is different now...
Thanks for replying, tst!
Dave

[ScottyD'sdad]

You can start it with jumper cable to the starter connection, to get your snow plowed, then replace the solenoid.

Ed

[boldpsi]

Ed,
Can I get a detailed description of that, or a pic or diagram, or a link?

Dave

[Don McCombs]

It always had a starter problem...

As Tim said, I think your past and present problems are related to poor grounding. Clean and tighten all the connections in the starting circuit, including the interface between the starter casting and the engine block.

[Bob McCarty]

Clean and tighten all the connections in the starting circuit, including the interface between the starter casting and the engine block.

Including those under the platform...

[ScottyD'sdad]

Jumper cable to the +on the battery, then touch it to the bolt on the starter, where the cable connects. As the others said, clean all the connections.

Ed

[staninlowerAL]

Ladies and Gents,
I've had Cub 253598 for roughly 20 years. It always had a starter problem; when the starter button was pushed, [u]it would whine or whir, then when released and repressed, it would normally start. Presumably this was being caused by the starter needing to be rebuilt[/u]; theoretically the bendix was not fully extending and meshing with the ring gear.

...... but clearly some of the wiring and the little "black relay thingy with the push-button on it under the floorboard" has been replaced. The loud click emanates from this relay/switch, because I simultaneously pressed the starter button and the push-button thing on it, and definitely felt the click coming from there...........Love, Dave

Dave this is past history, I know, before your rebuild but for clarity, this "black relay thingy" is an electro-magnetic switch which is made to open and close by electrical current when you push the starter button. Age/use causes the contact surfaces inside the switch to burn. When this happens the current that causes the switch to close and the starter to receive current to run does not happen, hence the statement that you made "released and repressed, it would normally start" makes sense. Enough current to make the "click sound" but not enough to run the starter motor. Refreshing the contacts can be done but it's more practical to replace the solenoid since disassembly is required. That's probably what Don McCombs meant when he said "all connections". If the posts on the relay are accessible, you can try "jumping" the relay with a heavy gauge wire or some other metal like a screwdriver, etc. Sparking will usually also be produced when you "jump" the relay switch.
EDIT: The starter solenoid/aka relay also has to be well grounded to work properly. Without a good ground, the current will not flow to create the magnet used to make the contact that bridges between the two cables that transfers current to the starter. Some relays ground through the mounting bolts and some have a grounding terminal.

[ajhbike]

I just had the exact problem with a new starter for a TO20. It turned out to be a bad solenoid.
Replaced it with a cheap single post from AutoZone and it was defective after a few starts so I took it back.
Sidebar....I opened up the gear shift start switch and the linkage was connected and the upside down button seemed to work. Cleaned up the terminals, hooked up the cables and it started!! A return to vintage!!

[Crimson Tim]

My money is on grounding issues. Where does the ground strap attach? Mine attached to the floor pan, but that wasn’t good enough. It would usually work. I would occasionally get a festive spark or smoke from the clutch pivot vicinity, and I would occasionally get bad battery sorts of symptoms, even with new batteries.
I moved the ground cable from the floor pan to a (paint and rust removed) transmission bolt and never had a problem again.

To really diagnose, though, do a voltage drop test. That will tell you specifically where the current fails. Could be a corroded connection or even a corroded cable itself.

[Glen]

Ladies and Gents,
I've had Cub 253598 for roughly 20 years. It always had a starter problem; when the starter button was pushed, it would whine or whir, then when released and repressed, it would normally start.

Hi,
It sounds like someone has changed the Cub some.
The last years of Cubs had a key ignition switch, that ran the starter.
It was a 3 position switch.

Below is a page from the Longstripe Cub operator's manual, for serial number 248125, and above, showing the ignition switch, at the lower left of the page.

http://farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.clea ... age-10.jpg

Below are listings at TM Tractor for parts of the starting system that it would have originally had, if you want to see the pics.

http://www.tmtractor.com/new/el/907fp.htm

http://www.tmtractor.com/new/el/708fp.htm

http://www.tmtractor.com/new/el/7536fp.htm

http://www.tmtractor.com/new/el/7684.htm

There is an actuating spring, the Cub parts manual calls it, that pushes the plunger on the switch under the platform. If it is broken or gone, the system won't work right.

Below is a page from the Cub parts manual showing the spring, it is number 23 in the pic.

http://www.farmallcub.info/manuals/cub_ ... 007-04.jpg

http://www.farmallcub.info/manuals/cub_ ... 007-05.jpg

I would charge the battery. New batteries should be charged also, they are not always fully charged.
Use a small output battery charger, 6 amps or less. It may take a few hours to fully charge the battery.

[boldpsi]

Everyone,
Wow, I'm honored and humbled by your responses and depth of knowledge of our beloved Cubs!
I will definitely clean everything up, replace the solenoid, move the ground from the bolt that holds down the box to a transmission bolt, and fully charge the battery. I'll take pictures tomorrow, too, before & after.
Regarding the relay/solenoid, the pushbutton on it is not connected to anything. Totally free and unattached, I can freely press it. Pics tomorrow.
Regarding the key start scenario, is it possible that the last 100 Cubs were different from that, perhaps sort-of "retro" in their manufacturing in honor of older Cubs?
Take care, all,
Dave.

[Jim Becker]

. . . , is it possible that the last 100 Cubs were different from that, . . .

No.

[Glen]

Hi,
Below are pages from the Cub and LoBoy parts manual showing the wiring for the later Cubs, it gives the serial number at the top of the pages.
There is a pic of the starting system parts under the platform.
You can probably see it better on a computer with a screen bigger than a phone.

http://www.farmallcub.info/manuals/cub_ ... 008-35.jpg

http://www.farmallcub.info/manuals/cub_ ... 008-36.jpg

http://www.farmallcub.info/manuals/cub_ ... 008-37.jpg

They were originally made so you had to push the clutch pedal down to start the engine.
That is what the actuating spring, attached to the clutch pedal parts does.

You didn't say what kind of ignition switch the Cub has.
If it is using the solenoid under the platform, with a push button on the dash, or something, I think the solenoid has to have a good ground too.
I would remove it, and sand the metal of the bracket where it is fastened to the Cub, and sand the metal on the Cub where the bolt holes are.
Wipe off all sanding with a clean rag.