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Electrical bafflement
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- Dale Finch
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 6645
- Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:34 am
- Zip Code: 27517
- Tractors Owned: '51 Cub #140966 "Bruno" with Woods 59 mower
'55 Cub #187541 "Betty" with Fast Hitch
'55 Cub #190482 "Ben" with Woods 42 mower
'55 Cub #191739 "Bertha" with Woods 42 mower
'56 Cub #194370 "Boris" with Mott Flail mower - Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: NC, Chapel Hill
Re: Electrical bafflement
Just wait until you try installing them!!
But hang in there and don't !!
But hang in there and don't !!
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 603
- Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:09 pm
- Zip Code: 32736
- Tractors Owned: The crew:
"John", 1952 Cub
"Paul", 1951 Cub
"George", 1958 LoBoy Cub with Wagner 45 Loader
"Ringo", 1977 Cub
So far, Paul and Ringo have arrived. John and George were supposed to follow ages ago, but apparently have gone awol. Long story. - Circle of Safety: Y
Re: Electrical bafflement
Ah, Finally! Progress!
I did not leave the farm today, so don’t have any new parts to install, but I did hear this tractor run for the first time in several months. So nothing is fixed, however I do know definitively both aspects of the *twofold* problem. This was accomplished in part through the ancient electrical engineering practice of “letting the smoke out”. Of the clutch pedal, no less.
I decided to try to bypass the broken relay and parts of the wiring harness to see if I could get it to run, to see if the wiring was the only problem. So, using jumper cables, I connected a good battery to my ground wire and to the wire that would have carried positive from the relay up to the key switch and the rest of the tractor. I touched the starter wire to hot to see if it would turn over. Nope. Nothing. But then I noticed wisps of smoke curling up from under the floor pan and the vicinity of the clutch pedal. Bingo. Problem number 1. The battery grounds well to the floor pan, but the floor pan lost its ground connection to the main castings. So I either need to pull the floor pan and clean that contact or change the ground connection location directly to one of the transmission bolts.
After changing the negative jumper cable to an unpainted bolt on the engine, them the starter would turn over just fine, but the engine would not fire. So I clipped a wire from the positive jumper cable to the IGN wire on the back of the key switch.
Then I hit the starter again and after turning over a couple of times, the engine started right up. I let it run for 10 or 15 minutes. It smoothed out within a minute or so like normal after it has been sitting, and had good oil pressure.
So I am pleased. All I have to do now is get the parts and install them, but at least now I know definitively what I need. Thanks to you all for helping me work through the troubleshooting process!
I need to clean up or relocate the ground.
I need to replace the relay that there was probably nothing wrong with until I BROKE it.
And I need to replace, at minimum, the two wires running between the key switch and the relay, though the entire wiring harness is dodgy enough that it deserves to be completely redone and hung properly.
So here are a couple of questions, because there are always more questions.
- Do you have a favorite product for preventing corrosion on battery terminals and other electrical connections? The last time I replace the battery are used a new one. It was a spray on the head sort of an early/waxy consistency. It was messy and attracts dirt, but not as badly as I thought it was going to. It generally did a decent job keeping corrosion at bay, though could not keep it out of the clamp on the terminal end.
- likewise, is there a combination thread-locker/never-seize/conductive paste to use on bolted connections that have to carry current. I’m thinking specifically of mounting the ground connection, but could also be useful for mounting the starter or connecting castings since everything grounds through them. Actually, The nuts on the relay, Ammeter, alternator, coil, headlights, etc. would all benefit from such a thing.
I did not leave the farm today, so don’t have any new parts to install, but I did hear this tractor run for the first time in several months. So nothing is fixed, however I do know definitively both aspects of the *twofold* problem. This was accomplished in part through the ancient electrical engineering practice of “letting the smoke out”. Of the clutch pedal, no less.
I decided to try to bypass the broken relay and parts of the wiring harness to see if I could get it to run, to see if the wiring was the only problem. So, using jumper cables, I connected a good battery to my ground wire and to the wire that would have carried positive from the relay up to the key switch and the rest of the tractor. I touched the starter wire to hot to see if it would turn over. Nope. Nothing. But then I noticed wisps of smoke curling up from under the floor pan and the vicinity of the clutch pedal. Bingo. Problem number 1. The battery grounds well to the floor pan, but the floor pan lost its ground connection to the main castings. So I either need to pull the floor pan and clean that contact or change the ground connection location directly to one of the transmission bolts.
After changing the negative jumper cable to an unpainted bolt on the engine, them the starter would turn over just fine, but the engine would not fire. So I clipped a wire from the positive jumper cable to the IGN wire on the back of the key switch.
Then I hit the starter again and after turning over a couple of times, the engine started right up. I let it run for 10 or 15 minutes. It smoothed out within a minute or so like normal after it has been sitting, and had good oil pressure.
So I am pleased. All I have to do now is get the parts and install them, but at least now I know definitively what I need. Thanks to you all for helping me work through the troubleshooting process!
I need to clean up or relocate the ground.
I need to replace the relay that there was probably nothing wrong with until I BROKE it.
And I need to replace, at minimum, the two wires running between the key switch and the relay, though the entire wiring harness is dodgy enough that it deserves to be completely redone and hung properly.
So here are a couple of questions, because there are always more questions.
- Do you have a favorite product for preventing corrosion on battery terminals and other electrical connections? The last time I replace the battery are used a new one. It was a spray on the head sort of an early/waxy consistency. It was messy and attracts dirt, but not as badly as I thought it was going to. It generally did a decent job keeping corrosion at bay, though could not keep it out of the clamp on the terminal end.
- likewise, is there a combination thread-locker/never-seize/conductive paste to use on bolted connections that have to carry current. I’m thinking specifically of mounting the ground connection, but could also be useful for mounting the starter or connecting castings since everything grounds through them. Actually, The nuts on the relay, Ammeter, alternator, coil, headlights, etc. would all benefit from such a thing.
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 4975
- Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:34 pm
- Zip Code: 36558
- Tractors Owned: Cubs: (3)'49's, (1 is for parts), (1)'57 IH Cub LoBoy w/FH, (2)154 Number Series Loboys, (1 is for parts), '76 Longstripe w/FH, Mowers: C-22, Bush Hog 412, Pennington 59, Woods RM42CF, Woods 42, assorted FCub plows, planters, discs, etc. OTHERS: '49 AC B & Ind. Sickle mower, '61 AC D12 Ser 2, '52 8N, '56 Ferguson 35 Deluxe, '47 & '49 Avery V, '53 MM BG (offset), '51 JD M (regular), '56 JD 420C, with Blade and fire plow, '85 JD 850 (Yanmar) w/72" belly mower, '76? Yanmar 2TR15 1500 & Bush Hog SQ42S-2 mower, '78? FORD Dexta, '86 FORD LGT14D & 48" Mower, (2)Cub Cadets & Mowers (MTD), (4) Sears Surburban's, other MTD mowers, Jeeps & other misc. "treasures"
- Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: AL (Southwest)
Re: Electrical bafflement
Anti-sieze. I prefer Loctite C5A. It's a bit expensive but fantastic at preventing siezure from rust. I learned this while working in a chemical plant.
Stan in LA (lower AL)
USAF & Reserves, Reg ARMY, ARMY NG (AL)
USAF & Reserves, Reg ARMY, ARMY NG (AL)
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 603
- Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:09 pm
- Zip Code: 32736
- Tractors Owned: The crew:
"John", 1952 Cub
"Paul", 1951 Cub
"George", 1958 LoBoy Cub with Wagner 45 Loader
"Ringo", 1977 Cub
So far, Paul and Ringo have arrived. John and George were supposed to follow ages ago, but apparently have gone awol. Long story. - Circle of Safety: Y
Re: Electrical bafflement
staninlowerAL wrote:Anti-sieze. I prefer Loctite C5A. It's a bit expensive but fantastic at preventing siezure from rust. I learned this while working in a chemical plant.
Does it help or hinder conductivity?
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 4975
- Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2010 11:34 pm
- Zip Code: 36558
- Tractors Owned: Cubs: (3)'49's, (1 is for parts), (1)'57 IH Cub LoBoy w/FH, (2)154 Number Series Loboys, (1 is for parts), '76 Longstripe w/FH, Mowers: C-22, Bush Hog 412, Pennington 59, Woods RM42CF, Woods 42, assorted FCub plows, planters, discs, etc. OTHERS: '49 AC B & Ind. Sickle mower, '61 AC D12 Ser 2, '52 8N, '56 Ferguson 35 Deluxe, '47 & '49 Avery V, '53 MM BG (offset), '51 JD M (regular), '56 JD 420C, with Blade and fire plow, '85 JD 850 (Yanmar) w/72" belly mower, '76? Yanmar 2TR15 1500 & Bush Hog SQ42S-2 mower, '78? FORD Dexta, '86 FORD LGT14D & 48" Mower, (2)Cub Cadets & Mowers (MTD), (4) Sears Surburban's, other MTD mowers, Jeeps & other misc. "treasures"
- Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: AL (Southwest)
Re: Electrical bafflement
Here's the Permatex brand, I think it's the same as Locktite:
Note the uses says battery cable connections, good electrical conductivity. I've used this for many years and have never had any problems of any kind with it. I hope this is helpful. Stan
Note the uses says battery cable connections, good electrical conductivity. I've used this for many years and have never had any problems of any kind with it. I hope this is helpful. Stan
Stan in LA (lower AL)
USAF & Reserves, Reg ARMY, ARMY NG (AL)
USAF & Reserves, Reg ARMY, ARMY NG (AL)
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 5189
- Joined: Tue Jan 12, 2010 2:08 pm
- Zip Code: 12514
- Circle of Safety: Y
Re: Electrical bafflement
they do make an electrical grease, good old front end grease is good for battery terminals
- Don McCombs
- Team Cub Mentor
- Posts: 17446
- Joined: Mon Feb 03, 2003 6:45 am
- Zip Code: 21550
- Tractors Owned: "1950 Something" Farmall Cub
1957 Farmall Cub w/FH
1977 International Cub w/FH
1978 International Cub
1948 Farmall Super A - Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: MD, Deep Creek Lake
Re: Electrical bafflement
Dielectric grease for all the applications that you asked about.
- Rick Spivey
- Cub Pro
- Posts: 2778
- Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:07 pm
- Zip Code: 29518
- Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: SC, Cades 29518
Re: Electrical bafflement
Crimson Tim wrote:
- likewise, is there a combination thread-locker/never-seize/conductive paste to use on bolted connections that have to carry current. I’m thinking specifically of mounting the ground connection, but could also be useful for mounting the starter or connecting castings since everything grounds through them. Actually, The nuts on the relay, Ammeter, alternator, coil, headlights, etc. would all benefit from such a thing.
Just to be clear, the greases mentioned by Stan and Don are "dielectric"; they are not intended to be "conductive", but instead "shield" the electrical connection to repel moisture and oxygen, etc. I agree that these are what is normally recommended on electrical connections, AFTER insuring a good contact metal to metal.
If you truly want a "conductive" grease, there is one called 841 Carbon Grease made for such an application, but I don't recommend using a highly conductive grease on these connections. Take each connection, clean it up, and then use a dielectric to further protect it.
Rick Spivey
'52 Cub ("Great Personality") 148xxx
'48 Cub with FH ("Gunny Cub") 38xxx
'57 Lambretta (a slow work in progress)
'74 Triumph TR6 (Mama's toy)
'52 Cub ("Great Personality") 148xxx
'48 Cub with FH ("Gunny Cub") 38xxx
'57 Lambretta (a slow work in progress)
'74 Triumph TR6 (Mama's toy)
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 603
- Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:09 pm
- Zip Code: 32736
- Tractors Owned: The crew:
"John", 1952 Cub
"Paul", 1951 Cub
"George", 1958 LoBoy Cub with Wagner 45 Loader
"Ringo", 1977 Cub
So far, Paul and Ringo have arrived. John and George were supposed to follow ages ago, but apparently have gone awol. Long story. - Circle of Safety: Y
Re: Electrical bafflement
Is there anything that a vehicle can do to kill a battery other than overcharge it?
I can only get enough charge into this battery to spin the starter slowly, but not fast enough to engage the starter gear. The battery is only 4 months old.
I did check voltage across the battery when running previously, and it was what I expected. Somewhere between 13V & 14V. It showed no signs of boiling, though the water level did seem a bit low. Topping it up made no difference.
I have had the alternator tested and it checked out fine. Though, I suppose that was a couple years ago now, and things can change.
I believe there is a minor current drain someplace when off, but wasn’t enough to drain the battery noticeably, even when not used for a few weeks.
So this battery lasted only 4 months. The previous battery didn’t last out its 12 month warranty, either. I had to put my truck battery in it today. I don’t want to fry that one, though, as it’s a lot more expensive to replace!
So has this just been a string of bad battery luck? Or is there something causing this that I can fix?
The batteries have been coming from Walmart. I never hold Walmart up as a scion of high quality, but I know a number of you on the site get batteries there. What do you think is going on?
I can only get enough charge into this battery to spin the starter slowly, but not fast enough to engage the starter gear. The battery is only 4 months old.
I did check voltage across the battery when running previously, and it was what I expected. Somewhere between 13V & 14V. It showed no signs of boiling, though the water level did seem a bit low. Topping it up made no difference.
I have had the alternator tested and it checked out fine. Though, I suppose that was a couple years ago now, and things can change.
I believe there is a minor current drain someplace when off, but wasn’t enough to drain the battery noticeably, even when not used for a few weeks.
So this battery lasted only 4 months. The previous battery didn’t last out its 12 month warranty, either. I had to put my truck battery in it today. I don’t want to fry that one, though, as it’s a lot more expensive to replace!
So has this just been a string of bad battery luck? Or is there something causing this that I can fix?
The batteries have been coming from Walmart. I never hold Walmart up as a scion of high quality, but I know a number of you on the site get batteries there. What do you think is going on?
-
- Team Cub Mentor
- Posts: 20344
- Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
- Zip Code: 65051
- Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: Mo. Linn
Re: Electrical bafflement
Disconnect one battery cable, read battery voltage. Then charge up the battery with a digital (computer) charger.
When battery is fully charged. All switches off. Digital multimeter, amps setting, read the discharge between the disconnected battery terminal and battery cable.
Should read zero amps or a couple of milli-amp draw with a single wire alternator.
If you don't have a battery drain, bad battery.
When battery is fully charged. All switches off. Digital multimeter, amps setting, read the discharge between the disconnected battery terminal and battery cable.
Should read zero amps or a couple of milli-amp draw with a single wire alternator.
If you don't have a battery drain, bad battery.
I have an excuse. CRS.
- Glen
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 6115
- Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:33 pm
- Zip Code: 00000
- Tractors Owned: 1956 Farmall Cub with Fast Hitch, F-11 plow, Disc, Cultivator, Cub-22 mower
- Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: Wa.
Re: Electrical bafflement
Hi,
The style of alternator used by IH on the newest Cubs was also used on many GM cars and trucks for years.
I have found on the cars and trucks that they slowly run down the batteries when sitting for months.
I disconnect the battery ground cable when one of them sits for a long time.
If something is running down the battery quicker than that, when the Cub is sitting, the alt may be doing it. The alt may have a problem, and is quickly running down the battery.
I would disconnect the battery ground cable when the Cub is sitting.
You can remove the battery ground cable from the battery post, and test it like Eugene said above, between the cable end and the post, and see if it drawing power from the battery.
If it is, then use a light and you can work up under the hood, and disconnect the alt wires, and test at the battery again, and see if the electrical draw stops.
The style of alternator used by IH on the newest Cubs was also used on many GM cars and trucks for years.
I have found on the cars and trucks that they slowly run down the batteries when sitting for months.
I disconnect the battery ground cable when one of them sits for a long time.
If something is running down the battery quicker than that, when the Cub is sitting, the alt may be doing it. The alt may have a problem, and is quickly running down the battery.
I would disconnect the battery ground cable when the Cub is sitting.
You can remove the battery ground cable from the battery post, and test it like Eugene said above, between the cable end and the post, and see if it drawing power from the battery.
If it is, then use a light and you can work up under the hood, and disconnect the alt wires, and test at the battery again, and see if the electrical draw stops.
-
- Team Cub Mentor
- Posts: 20344
- Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
- Zip Code: 65051
- Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: Mo. Linn
Re: Electrical bafflement
If the alternator is original it's a Delco 3 wire. There is a diode or light built in/on the wire attaching to the #2 terminal on the alternator.Crimson Tim wrote:I have had the alternator tested and it checked out fine. Though, I suppose that was a couple years ago now, and things can change.
If the diode is bad or perhaps a the wire replaced, it will discharge the battery, flat, in a short period of time.
The check is to unplug the #1 and #2 wires from the alternator and check for battery drain.
I have an excuse. CRS.
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 603
- Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:09 pm
- Zip Code: 32736
- Tractors Owned: The crew:
"John", 1952 Cub
"Paul", 1951 Cub
"George", 1958 LoBoy Cub with Wagner 45 Loader
"Ringo", 1977 Cub
So far, Paul and Ringo have arrived. John and George were supposed to follow ages ago, but apparently have gone awol. Long story. - Circle of Safety: Y
Re: Electrical bafflement
I will follow up on your advice, because I know I have a slight drain. Up until the battery just outright died, though, it could sit unused for a few weeks and still start up eagerly, so the drain must be small.
Now, however, I can’t charge the battery to any useful degree, even when disconnected from the tractor. So I know the battery is bad. The question is why? The last two batteries have failed quickly. 11 months on one and 4 months on the other. Is this just bad luck, or is the tractor burning them out somehow?
I’m pretty sure it’s not charging over 14V. I’ll check it the next time I run it. How much voltage is too much voltage? I should pull the alternator and have it tested again. Other than that, though, I can’t think of any reason the batteries should be so short lived.
I don’t know if the alternator is original. I doubt it. Not much is on this tractor. I have to flick a switch to get the alternator excited, though, so no diode and no bulb/resistor. So that should not be the source of the drain as long as that switch is off, right? It’s probably some damaged insulation, so a new wiring harness will probably fix it.
Now, however, I can’t charge the battery to any useful degree, even when disconnected from the tractor. So I know the battery is bad. The question is why? The last two batteries have failed quickly. 11 months on one and 4 months on the other. Is this just bad luck, or is the tractor burning them out somehow?
I’m pretty sure it’s not charging over 14V. I’ll check it the next time I run it. How much voltage is too much voltage? I should pull the alternator and have it tested again. Other than that, though, I can’t think of any reason the batteries should be so short lived.
I don’t know if the alternator is original. I doubt it. Not much is on this tractor. I have to flick a switch to get the alternator excited, though, so no diode and no bulb/resistor. So that should not be the source of the drain as long as that switch is off, right? It’s probably some damaged insulation, so a new wiring harness will probably fix it.
-
- Team Cub Mentor
- Posts: 20344
- Joined: Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:52 pm
- Zip Code: 65051
- Circle of Safety: Y
- Location: Mo. Linn
Re: Electrical bafflement
Crimson Tim wrote:I did check voltage across the battery when running previously, and it was what I expected. Somewhere between 13V & 14V. It showed no signs of boiling, though the water level did seem a bit low. Topping it up made no difference.
Off the wall question/thought. How many cells, caps, does the battery have? 12 volt = 6 caps. 6 volt = 3 caps.It showed no signs of boiling, though the water level did seem a bit low. Topping it up made no difference.
Most automotive type batteries are sealed, no adding water.
I have an excuse. CRS.
-
- 10+ Years
- Posts: 603
- Joined: Wed Feb 19, 2014 1:09 pm
- Zip Code: 32736
- Tractors Owned: The crew:
"John", 1952 Cub
"Paul", 1951 Cub
"George", 1958 LoBoy Cub with Wagner 45 Loader
"Ringo", 1977 Cub
So far, Paul and Ringo have arrived. John and George were supposed to follow ages ago, but apparently have gone awol. Long story. - Circle of Safety: Y
Re: Electrical bafflement
Eugene wrote:Off the wall question/thought. How many cells, caps, does the battery have? 12 volt = 6 caps. 6 volt = 3 caps.
Most automotive type batteries are sealed, no adding water.
Definitely 12V. Both these batteries did work great originally. Until one day they did not.
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