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Couple questions about ignition system

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Glen
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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby Glen » Wed Jun 15, 2022 6:57 pm

Hi,
Interesting that the Cub has what looks like a 12 volt generator, the same size and style as the original Cub 6 volt generator.
The gen in your pic has an ID plate with red paint, which Delco, the maker, used to show it is 12 volts.
The 6 volt gens and starters had plates with black paint where the red is on the gen in the pic.
Please write down the model number of the gen and post it here so we know what it is. Googling the number will probably tell what voltage the gen is. Then we can be sure of the voltage.
The model number is the left number on the plate. It is probably 7 numbers.
There is probably a serial number on the right of the plate, it is probably 4 numbers, I don't need that.

You could write down the model number from the starter also, and post it on here. It is in the same place on the plate as the gen number. Sometimes the paint is worn off the plate, I don't see any left on the starter plate.
The starter looks like an original Cub 6 volt starter, but the removeable band at the end of it is different.
People on here commonly use a 6 volt starter when they convert a Cub to 12 volts.

Below is a page from the 1950 Cub owner's manual, showing the electrical system parts, with the hood off.

http://farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.clea ... e%2033.jpg

Yours has a different unit on top of the gen than the 6 volt gen in the pic had.
It looks like it is a voltage regulator, like was said before.
The pic has a Relay on top of the gen, the voltage regulator was used on Cubs after the Relay.
The voltage regulator regulates how much power the gen makes, to charge the battery.

The magneto originally is not connected to battery power, it makes it's own power, as it is turned by the engine.
Don't connect it to battery power, if it is using the original magneto coil.
The coil wire in your pic is connected to the top cover post on the magneto.
That is where the original magneto coil is, at the top of the magneto, built in the magneto.
The magneto needs no converting to 12 volts, if you are using the original coil.
There is no separate, round cylinder shaped coil, like cars used.

It is easy to set the gap of the magneto points.
I sit down on a lawn chair or something, next to the engine. It is easier working on the magneto.

In your pics the magneto is assembled. Before removing the cover over the points, turn the engine so the rotor is pointing straight up, that is where the number 1 cylinder spark plug wire post originally is on the cap. This will help you to not lose the timing when the cover is off.
Number 1 cylinder is used as a reference for timing.

In the pic in my post on page 1 of this post, you can see there is an oblong shape on the magneto center shaft, in near the points, that is the cam that turns and open and closes the point on the right, or lower side.
The cam has 2 areas that are high.
The right point has to be to the right as far as it will go to set the point opening.
There is a part of the right point that rubs on the cam.

While the hood is off, I would oil the generator oil cups.
There is 1 at the front, and 1 at the rear.
Open the top of the front one, and put in 5 or so drops of thin motor oil from an oil can.
The rear oil cup's top is gone. It was originally like the front oil cup.
If it has dirt in it, from no top, try to clean it with a small screwdriver and a rag.

If you can't set the point gap, you could try to find someone that knows how, and have him do it, and show you how.
I hope this helps. :)
Last edited by Glen on Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

marshall
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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby marshall » Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:13 pm

staninlowerAL wrote:I noticed that the cap on the magneto still has a wire which looks like it connects the internal coil (if present) to the distributor cap. Is this true? Is this the coil you said you replaced in 2019?


Yes. This wire goes to the center connection in the distributor cap.

My memory of replacing the coil is unreliable. I saw that I posted to this forum about my struggles to get the generator out the way so I could install a coil so I'm assuming I was actually doing it and not just doing a dry run. I don't see any external coils anywhere else and since the center distributor cap is connected as described above, the coil must be inside that black section above where it says "Bearing Oiler". I forgot to mention that there was a decent amount of oil inside that magneto when I opened it. I've seen it that way before so I guess it can function that way but I have to wonder how that might effect sparking at the points if they are submerged in oil. Its clean now.

As far as where voltage is coming from during startup, I get that its the battery. While running where is the voltage coming from that goes into the coil?
The generator and voltage regulator are recharging the battery. Are they also sending 12 volts to the coil?

The service manual is definitely helping. I didn't realize I needed to crank the engine so that the rotor strip pointed at terminal #1 before I removed the cover over the distributor body. I'm hoping that when I get this aligned I'll open it up and find a the points opened up a bit so that I can set a correct gap.

I really believe that the points are probably fine. I don't think the plastic insulator cracked when I installed this one. I heard a sound when I was tightening the bolt, but see no evidence of it being cracked. I wish they made it out of rubber so that it could tolerate a little pressure.

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Glen
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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby Glen » Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:20 pm

Hi,
Read my post above, if you didn't see it.
The magneto makes it's own power for the spark plugs, when the engine turns it, it is not connected to battery power, if it is using the original style magneto coil, under the cover on top of the magneto. :)

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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby Jim Becker » Wed Jun 15, 2022 7:39 pm

You have a magneto ignition that is in its original configuration. It has a built-in "generator" that produces all the power the magneto needs, during start-up or running. The rest of your electrical system: battery, starter, generator, wiring, etc. is only there to physically turn the engine for starting (and to run lights). The magneto is not influenced by the electrical system. It does not care what voltage battery you have. Your earlier comment that it ran better after changing the 6-volt battery to a 12-volt battery does not follow.

The number on your generator says it is a 12-volt generator. It appears to be old enough to have originally used a cut-out mounted on top. There were replacement voltage regulators that matched that generator. That is probably what you have. Clearly it is SOME regulator that was intended to replace a top-mounted cut-out. To my knowledge, that number generator was never used by IH for original equipment or as a replacement on any tractor or farm machine. As already stated, your starter looks like an original style Cub 6-volt starter.

I think we all realize that, although you have had the tractor several years, you are starting pretty well at the beginning on doing repair work. If we write anything that you don't understand, back us up and get further explanation until you do understand. Skipping over anything that isn't clear will not get you closer to a solution. Typically when somebody posts a reply, they will assume you have followed earlier explanations.

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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby staninlowerAL » Wed Jun 15, 2022 8:58 pm

I would be concerned about the excess oil in the magneto that you referred to. Might be time to consider replacing the seal which is a whole another operation. You can clean up the oil that is present and deal with it later. Excessive oil will cause the ignition system to ground out and not run so you can plan to deal with that later after you get it running. Good Luck.
Stan in LA (lower AL)
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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby staninlowerAL » Thu Jun 16, 2022 7:07 am

Hi Marshall, I've been thinking about this post and connected the information to your comment about excess oil in the magneto: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=113203&start=15#p901427 .
I forgot to mention that there was a decent amount of oil inside that magneto when I opened it. I've seen it that way before so I guess it can function that way but I have to wonder how that might effect sparking at the points if they are submerged in oil. Its clean now.
This might be the reason the engine stopped in the beginning. A sufficient amount of oil on the contact surfaces of the points can act as an insulator and not allow the coil to fire to the plugs. I'm not sure if this will possibly damage the magneto coil or not since the magneto will still be producing the electrical current as you attempt to start the engine. Someone with more knowledge on this will have to answer that question. It is common knowledge that the magneto should not be made to "fire" without a path to ground to dissipate the current. You could convert to a 12v external coil but that is a completely different system and requires several modifications. Another thing to check is the wear of the rotor and pinion gear. Excess wear affects the timing of these components. Good Luck.
Stan in LA (lower AL)
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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby marshall » Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:53 am

I found that I needed to rotate the fan a good bit to get the rotor to point to #1 terminal. Opened up the cover and found the two points with a good deal of separation.
IMG_0643.JPG


I gapped them to 0.013 (that's my feeler gauge near there)

IMG_0644.JPG


closed things back up, and .... still no spark at the plugs.

So next step is to test the coil, right? Can I do this by disconnecting the cable from the coil that runs to the center of the distributor cap and putting a probe on it with a voltmeter? If so, I'm wondering what voltage(s) I should be expecting to see.

Based on my reading of the ignition manual at http://farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.cleancomputes.com/Cub/Blue%20Ribbon%20Service%20Manuals/FOS-20%20Chapter%206-Ignition%20Circuits/FOS-20%20Chapter%206-Ignition%20Circuits.htm it would seem that I should be seeing a voltage that is fluctuating between a low value to a very high value as the secondary coil is producing these high-voltage bursts. But perhaps its happening so fast that a meter can't really display it. Anyway I'd love to know that at I am at least conceptually right.

I have this meter shown below. Not sure how it should be set for this measurement.
IMG_0649.JPG

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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby tmays » Thu Jun 16, 2022 10:11 am

Did you file the points while you were in there? If not, file the points with a points file and try again. But first, what does the wire hooked to the post on the outside if the housing run to? It should just go to ground via a switch to kill the magneto. Remove that wire before trying to get spark
Last edited by tmays on Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thomas

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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby Rick Spivey » Thu Jun 16, 2022 11:06 am

Marshall,
Your pictures help a lot. Get the machine back to that same position/condition and check the following.

1 - The internal wire with the red insulator appears to come from the condenser, and appears to be connected correctly; However, the other black wire connected to that terminal should be the one coming from the internal coil; it looks like maybe it is not fully connected to the terminal screw, I say that only because the spade terminal on the end of it appears to stick out from the nut a fair amount. I could easily be wrong but be sure it has a good connection.

2 - Double check your gap, first making sure the bottom point that moves is sitting on the highest portion of the cam lobe on that center rotating shaft. The picture looks like it was in a good spot, but double check, you want it at the highest portion of the cam lobe.

3 - Once you've double checked those items, tear off a small piece of brown paper bag, like grocery stores used to use, or something similar that won't tear too easy. Stick that between the point contact surfaces and rotate the engine enough to make the points close. Then pull the paper out, That will "clean" any oil, etc off the point surfaces. Someone else mentioned using a points file to clean them, be sure and do this paper procedure afterwards to clean off any filings.

4 -Check the inside of the distributor cap to insure you don't see any corrosion, dirt, or gray lines indicating the spark may be flowing down a crack in the cap.

5 - Button everything up and check for spark. Your voltage check may be theoretically correct, but a digital meter will likely never give you an accurate result.

6 - If still no spark, check the condition of the spark plug wires, and the contacts on that side of the distributor cap.

7 - If still no spark, there are a couple things we can do to check the coil. Respond back and I will try and guide you through that.

It seems as though your experience with these systems is limited, I think you said as much. So we may reach a point where someone more knowledgeable will have to help you with the magneto unit. That would likely involve removal and replacement, which involves timing. It is easier with a magneto than you might think, but it is also a task where even seasoned veterans can be fooled. We will address that if needed.

I think so long as nothing has moved, your timing would be close enough to run, But even changing the point gap will affect timing, so to get your cub to run it's best, we may need to double check timing anyway. Let's get a spark first.
Rick Spivey
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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby marshall » Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:26 pm

Glen wrote:Hi,

Please write down the model number of the gen and post it here so we know what it is. Googling the number will probably tell what voltage the gen is. The model number is the left number on the plate.

Generator model #: 1100953. The first two numbers may be the letter "I" as in "I am." They are somewhat difficult to read

Harder to read is the starter model # because it is very worn. Here's what I think it says: 1109011. Again those first two numbers may be the letter "I"

Thanks for the comparison between my tractor and the diagram. Hopefully I can call things by the right name. I'm reading the manual on how the ignition system works which should enable me to write more informed sounding questions ;). I do notice in this forum that people have a lot of different names for the same thing.

I was going to ask about those oil cups so I'll clean the uncovered one and give them both a few drops of oil. Maybe I can find a decent stopper to put in the capless one. I'm guessing this oil is unrelated to the oil that is filling the inside of the magneto that I mentioned.

This morning I posted that I did successfully set the point gap. The key was getting the rotor at #1 before opening it up. I'm still getting no spark at the plugs so its at the next step now which I assume is testing the coil with my questions about that in a different post.

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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby marshall » Thu Jun 16, 2022 4:37 pm

tmays wrote:Did you file the points while you were in there? But first, what does the wire hooked to the post on the outside if the housing run to? It should just go to ground via a switch to kill the magneto. Remove that wire before trying to get spark


Points are brand new. The blue wire on the side of the magneto does run back to the control panel/ switch.
So I should disconnect that from the magneto when testing to see if there's a spark??

The reason I ask is that the other posts in this thread are telling me that voltage to the magneto is provided by the battery during startup. After its running the magneto provides its own voltage. So if I accept that idea, doesn't disconnecting the magneto from ground then disable it from receiving the necessary startup voltage from the battery? So how can the plugs get a spark if the magneto isn't connected?

Just trying to make sense of all the information in this thread and what I've seen in the prescribed readings people have sent me.

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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby Bob McCarty » Thu Jun 16, 2022 5:21 pm

Please reread Jim Becker's last post regarding how a magneto functions and that the battery/generator only supplies electricity to the starter and lights, but not to the spark plugs. Without the battery and starter, you have to hand crank the engine to energize the magneto and provide spark at the plugs to start and run the Cub.
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marshall
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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby marshall » Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:50 pm

Ok. I've been reading this document http://farmallcub.com/rudi_cub/www.cleancomputes.com/Cub/Blue%20Ribbon%20Service%20Manuals/FOS-20%20Chapter%206-Ignition%20Circuits/FOS-20%20Chapter%206-Ignition%20Circuits.htm that talks about battery current flowing into the primary windings of the coil and then into the magneto, and finally to ground during startup. So on my machine this isn't happening, and instead the starting motor must be getting the engine turning so that the magneto generates voltage itself?

Anyway, maybe having the theoretical stuff fully groked is less important that just getting things installed right.

At this point I'm waiting for some wrenches that will allow me to get into the magneto more easily so I can get everything on the post tightened down.

I'm still having a little problem understanding this direction:
Double check your gap, first making sure the bottom point that moves is sitting on the highest portion of the cam lobe on that center rotating shaft. The picture looks like it was in a good spot, but double check, you want it at the highest portion of the cam lobe.


Below is a high res image of the points in position. Can you tell me if the lower point is on the highest portion of the cam lobe. I'm not certain I'm looking at the cam lobe or how the arm of the point sits on it.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ATtQUH7mv5EJ9dV6ah1WtNzr4Jj5Z3Sb/view?usp=sharing

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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby Rick Spivey » Thu Jun 16, 2022 6:52 pm

New points often need "cleaning" in addition to being set. Clean them as instructed in several posts above.

It looks like your points are on the high part of the cam lobe; I just can't tell if there is any "slight" difference left or right of where you are; you should be safe in the center of the lobe.

The magneto creates an electrical field by spinning a magnet inside a coil of wire. This creates an electrical field in the coil. When the points open, the circuit is interrupted, and the electrical field breaks down. To oversimplify, that is when that field results in a spark at the spark plug.

The wire connected between the terminal stud and the switch at the dash is a grounding wire. When the internal circuitry of the magneto (connected internally to that post) is grounded, then the circuitry no longer works as intended, and there is a no spark condition. This is how you stop the engine from running, it "removes" the spark. The reason it was suggested to disconnect that is because the switch could be shorted or in the wrong position, and you won't get a spark.

Lastly, to repeat, the magneto creates its own power when it spins. The battery, voltage regulator, and generator are only there to "crank" the engine over and run the lights. They have nothing to do with running the engine on a magneto ignition system.

Hope this helps.
Rick Spivey
'52 Cub ("Great Personality") 148xxx
'48 Cub with FH ("Gunny Cub") 38xxx
'57 Lambretta (a slow work in progress)
'74 Triumph TR6 (Mama's toy)

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tmays
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Re: Couple questions about ignition system

Postby tmays » Thu Jun 16, 2022 8:25 pm

I’m a nutshell, do not supply voltage to the stud we’ve been talking about. If you have supplied it with voltage, then most likely the magneto coil is no good

Edit: I think it might be a good idea to post a pic of the magneto side of the tractor to give us an idea of exactly what is installed on your tractor.
Thomas


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