A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Farmall Cub Forum -- Questions and answers to all of your Cub related issues.

Moderator: Team Cub

Forum rules
Notice: For sale and wanted posts are not allowed in this forum. Please use our free classifieds or one of our site sponsors for your tractor and parts needs.

After the machining process, has your seal started leaking again.

Rick 'kubkraft' lathe machined failed
4
31%
Phil CNC machined failed
3
23%
tst currently fixing our retainers failed
2
15%
members attempt to fix their own failed
4
31%
 
Total votes: 13

User avatar
John *.?-!.* cub owner
Team Cub Guide
Team Cub Guide
Posts: 22717
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:09 pm
Zip Code: 63664
Tractors Owned: 47, 48, 49 cub plus Wagner loader & other attachments. 41 Farmall H.
Location: Mo, Potosi

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:15 pm

Stanton wrote:Thanks for doing this, Rick.

I used the Loctite 660. Didn't take long to start leaking again.

Did you have bare metal on the outer edges of the seal? I do not think either the 660 or the Bearing mount I use will work good unless they have bare metal to stick to.
If you are not part of the solution,
you are part of the problem!!!

Landreo
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 1168
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:10 am
Zip Code: 29130
Tractors Owned: fcub(5)
tricycle cub
154 (4)
Earthmaster (2)
JD 40T, JD 420 crawler-loader, JD MT
JD Unstyled A, Styled A, Unstyled AR
JD H
Centaur Tractor
AC Model C, G
Cub Cadets (9)
Gibson D
Red-E
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: SC, Ridgeway

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby Landreo » Mon Feb 12, 2018 7:03 pm

I don't want to fill this thread with extraneous information but ZAMAK is a specific alloy not just a "potmetal". Regular or common potmetal tends to oxidize and crack over time. I have pulleys from an old Edison Dictaphone that are split and cracked from expansion of the potmetal. Same issues with radios from the 1920 with broken dial pulleys. Sorry to say but everyone's childhood toy cap gun is going to split and crack. ZAMAK would not typically develop aging cracks but still has the problems of metal creep. So it could have been worse, at least IHC chose to use a reasonably stable type of potmetal.

It is your poll but knowing the denominator will give a much better idea of the success or failure rate. It will also let you know if the poll results are even valid, in other words, did you reach a reasonable number of reworked retainer users to have any validity. If only those that have had a failure respond then you will get skewed results.

User avatar
radioguy41
Cub Star!!
Cub Star!!
Posts: 353
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:46 am
Zip Code: 18235
Tractors Owned: -
1948 Farmall Cub (Cyrus)
1993 Craftsman LT4000
1993 Craftsman LT4000 #2
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Lehighton, PA

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby radioguy41 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:20 pm

Bill V in Md wrote:I understand the reasoning for identifying the ones that failed and their source, but don’t you also need to know the ones that were machined but have not failed?

I would agree. I think it's important to know, or at least have a reference number, of the percentage of failures per method. This is how numbers can be misleading. If Mr A has 2 failures and Mr B has 3 failures on the surface their methods seem to favor Mr A (based on poll results) but if Mr A did 50 and Mr B did 100 the methods are no longer equal. A failure rate of 3 out of 100 (3%) is more successful than 2 out of 50 (4%). As set up the poll only provides partial data with no base reference. These numbers are hypothetical and are only used as an example of how partial data can skew the conclusions.
Circle of Safety Image Image

User avatar
Rick Prentice
Team Cub Guide
Team Cub Guide
Posts: 5480
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2004 7:24 am
Zip Code: 43528
Tractors Owned: 47(circle cub),48(Floyd backhoe),49,,51,54 and another 55
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: OH, Holland

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby Rick Prentice » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:26 pm

I'm sure I did close to 400, My guess is Phil did upwards of 300 and Tim stated he's done 2000 plus.
I guess I just don't understand what some of you want. I would think the denominator would be 400 for Rick, 300 for Phil, and 2000 for Tim, if that's what you're after, so I must not be seeing something correctly. Again, It wasn't my intent to bash anyone comparing track records or ratios , but to prove to everyone that no matter who does the fix, it could possibly fail now or in the future. We know IH made an improvement several years after the first retainers and seals started leaking, we don't have any idea, that I know of, when the first R2 retainers and rubber seals started leaking. Our only record is because Dennis started this site and we have the search function. Again, sorry for all this confusion,
Rick
When I told my dad I've been misplacing things and doing stupid stuff----His reply---"It only gets better"

User avatar
radioguy41
Cub Star!!
Cub Star!!
Posts: 353
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2017 10:46 am
Zip Code: 18235
Tractors Owned: -
1948 Farmall Cub (Cyrus)
1993 Craftsman LT4000
1993 Craftsman LT4000 #2
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Lehighton, PA

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby radioguy41 » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:59 pm

Rick Prentice wrote:Again, It wasn't my intent to bash anyone comparing track records or ratios , but to prove to everyone that no matter who does the fix, it could possibly fail now or in the future.

I think future failures of any sort of repairs are a possibility if not a probability so I'm not sure, then, what the purpose is. The heading says "to determine the best rear seal retainer fix" which implies a comparison, does it not? How can you determine the best of a group without comparing them?
Circle of Safety Image Image

User avatar
Stanton
Team Cub
Team Cub
Posts: 4818
Joined: Mon Jun 22, 2009 6:56 am
Zip Code: 64070
Tractors Owned: 1942 Farmall AV, serial #87025
1947 Farmall Circle Cub, serial #2116
1948 Farmall Cub, serial #46066
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Lone Jack, MO

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby Stanton » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:41 am

John *.?-!.* cub owner wrote:
Stanton wrote:Thanks for doing this, Rick.

I used the Loctite 660. Didn't take long to start leaking again.

Did you have bare metal on the outer edges of the seal? I do not think either the 660 or the Bearing mount I use will work good unless they have bare metal to stick to.


John, it was a metal seal in original (pot-metal) retainer, if I recall.
Stanton
Image Circle of Safety

Landreo
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 1168
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:10 am
Zip Code: 29130
Tractors Owned: fcub(5)
tricycle cub
154 (4)
Earthmaster (2)
JD 40T, JD 420 crawler-loader, JD MT
JD Unstyled A, Styled A, Unstyled AR
JD H
Centaur Tractor
AC Model C, G
Cub Cadets (9)
Gibson D
Red-E
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: SC, Ridgeway

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby Landreo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:48 am

All seals will eventually fail, the rubber or leather or rope will not last forever but there may be a big difference between the mean time to failure for the original seal retainers and the reworked retainers.The original seal and retainer may last 20, 30, or 40 years. How long do the reworked seal retainers last and what is the time to failure?

A total of 2700 reworked seal retainers may be out there but how many of those folks will see this poll? Is the failure numbers for all 3 groups only 4 out of 2700 or is the failure 4 out of the 100 people that read the poll? That is where the "success" numbers would help sort out the response rate. If you have 4 fails but 2000 people responded that their seals were a success then that is a good rate. If you have 4 fails but only 10 folks responded with a success then that tells you that you are missing a lot of folks that did not respond or did not see the survey. I expect most folks that have had the retainers reworked are not currently involved in Farmallcub.com and do not know about the survey. The success numbers would give an idea of the validity of your poll results.

Good data is useful for folks to determine what options suit them best. Bad data is not useful to anyone.

Matt Kirsch
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 4581
Joined: Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:04 pm
Zip Code: 14559
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: Rochester, NY

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby Matt Kirsch » Tue Feb 13, 2018 11:22 am

Forget I said anything.
Last edited by Matt Kirsch on Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
John *.?-!.* cub owner
Team Cub Guide
Team Cub Guide
Posts: 22717
Joined: Sun Feb 02, 2003 2:09 pm
Zip Code: 63664
Tractors Owned: 47, 48, 49 cub plus Wagner loader & other attachments. 41 Farmall H.
Location: Mo, Potosi

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby John *.?-!.* cub owner » Tue Feb 13, 2018 12:23 pm

Rick started this wanting to know about success and problems. I have 3 that were done by him and 1 by TSt. Of all of them I have had one fail, and I suspect that one may be from the metal fatiguing, not from any fault in the modification. That is the type information I believe he is looking for.
If you are not part of the solution,
you are part of the problem!!!

Landreo
10+ Years
10+ Years
Posts: 1168
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 7:10 am
Zip Code: 29130
Tractors Owned: fcub(5)
tricycle cub
154 (4)
Earthmaster (2)
JD 40T, JD 420 crawler-loader, JD MT
JD Unstyled A, Styled A, Unstyled AR
JD H
Centaur Tractor
AC Model C, G
Cub Cadets (9)
Gibson D
Red-E
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: SC, Ridgeway

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby Landreo » Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:56 pm

Matt Kirsch wrote:Including the number of successes in this poll is a waste of time because you are not going to get 100% participation. At best the poll results would make it look as if there is a 50% failure rate, and at worst a 90%+ failure rate.

Remember, happy customers have little reason to complain.

Besides we already have a rough number of retainers modified by the various modifiers. We can get a failure rate from that if necessary.


How can you get the failure rate from the rough numbers of reworked retainers? I would be interested to know. Your method of determining the failure rate only works with 100% participation. I would be surprised if the actual participation rate in this poll even reaches 1%.

You can get an estimate of the failure rate from the number of failures and the number of successes. You can estimate the failure rate from the number of fails and the participation rate. The poll, as is, will not give the participation rate nor the number of successes so it is impossible to know or estimate the failure rate from this poll. The failure rate or the success rate are the two important takeaways we should get but are impossible to determine as the poll is currently designed.

ajhbike
501 Club
501 Club
Posts: 795
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2017 4:06 pm
Zip Code: 06405
Tractors Owned: 1957 Cub- Lorelai
1956 Lo-Boy FH- Rory
1951 Super C FH- Emily
1968 JD 3020- Paris
Woods 59 CLF
54A Blade, 54-L Blade, C-22 Sickle
C-21-P Sickle Mower
72" Rear Blade, Carryalls, Pallet Forks, IH 263 2 Row Cultivator, 7' Rake, Brush Hog, Horn-Draulic FEL
Location: Branford, CT

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby ajhbike » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:13 pm

Why not let him run the poll as he wishes and either participate or not? It seems the goal is to determine what doesn't work so that processes can be adjusted if needed. And there is some collaboration between the 3 "suppliers" with the goal to improve the process to reduce the failures and exchange information. IMHO, it seems like win-win whether the poll is statistically sound or not to me.

User avatar
Barnyard
Team Cub
Team Cub
Posts: 21132
Joined: Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:39 pm
Zip Code: 45030
Tractors Owned: At This Time
40 Farmall Cubs (Round Hood)
2 Farmall Cub (Square Hood)
2 IH Cubs (Square Hood)
5 Lo-Boys (Round Hood)
2 Lo-Boys (Square Hood)
2 Farmall 404's
1 Farmall H
1 Ferguson 20
1 Cub Cadet 125
1 Kubota B-7100
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: OH, New Haven (Hamilton County)

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby Barnyard » Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:36 pm

ajhbike wrote:Why not let him run the poll as he wishes and either participate or not? It seems the goal is to determine what doesn't work so that processes can be adjusted if needed. And there is some collaboration between the 3 "suppliers" with the goal to improve the process to reduce the failures and exchange information. IMHO, it seems like win-win whether the poll is statistically sound or not to me.

Exactly!
It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something.
- Franklin D. Roosevelt -

Circle of Safety

User avatar
Bill Hudson
Team Cub
Team Cub
Posts: 8174
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:50 am
Zip Code: 44057
Tractors Owned: 57 F-Cub - Dad & Mom's Cub
52 F-Cub
49 F-Cub
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: OH, Madison

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby Bill Hudson » Tue Feb 13, 2018 4:38 pm

Barnyard wrote:
ajhbike wrote:Why not let him run the poll as he wishes and either participate or not? It seems the goal is to determine what doesn't work so that processes can be adjusted if needed. And there is some collaboration between the 3 "suppliers" with the goal to improve the process to reduce the failures and exchange information. IMHO, it seems like win-win whether the poll is statistically sound or not to me.

Exactly!


You betcha!!! This is not PhD research requiring statistical analysis that is ten feet tall and bulletproof.

Bill
"The probability of life originating from accident is comparable to the probability of the unabridged dictionary resulting from an explosion in a printing shop." Edwin Conklin, biologist

User avatar
Rick Spivey
Cub Pro
Cub Pro
Posts: 2082
Joined: Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:07 pm
Zip Code: 29518
Circle of Safety: Y
Location: SC, Cades 29518

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby Rick Spivey » Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:46 pm

ANd I'll just note, that the failures I am interested in, and have experienced, are a failure of the seal to stay lodged in the retainer. Had it been just a typical failure of the sealing lip, I'd not think about it one second, and would just replace the seal. So I think this is directed more at failures where the seal was NOT retained correctly, rather than service failures of the sealing lip.
Rick Spivey
'52 Cub ("Great Personality") 148xxx
'48 Cub with FH ("Gunny Cub") 38xxx
'57 Lambretta (a slow work in progress)
'74 Triumph TR6 (Mama's toy)

User avatar
pickerandsinger
5+ Years
5+ Years
Posts: 1490
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2012 3:23 pm
Zip Code: 13143
Tractors Owned: 1957 Cub Low Boy w/ FH Mott Flail Mower
1953 Cub w/ sprayer and 54A blade (Chompers)
1954 Cub w/fast hitch (Ira)
1948 Cub ( Papa Paul)with Henderson loader..
1951 Mutt mix Cub (BattleAx
1950 Farmall Cub (basket case demo)
Cub parts tractor
1950 Ferguson TO20 w/ loader (John Henry)
1951 Ferguson TEA 20 (parts)( Uncle Rusty)
F/H Disc Harrow for cub L-38
C-22 Sickle Bar Mower
IH C2 and C3 mower
Universal tool attachment with disc hillers..Rear cultivators (various tips
York Rake for Cub home made
Single bottom Plow for Cub F194
Gravely 5660 12 hp/ w snoblower.rototiller,bush hog
Circle of Safety: Y

Re: A POLL to determine the best rear seal retainer fix

Postby pickerandsinger » Wed Feb 14, 2018 3:33 am

On the success side, I've put in 5 from Tim and never had an issue...( 5 different tractors, btw) :lol: ....Dave
In Memory of 58,286


  • Similar Topics
    Replies
    Views
    Last post

Return to “Farmall Cub”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: cubbrian and 4 guests